Official Iran conflict game thread.

creepycoug said:
You should have finished reading:

This is the part to which you should have paid more attention instead of defending that ratings whore Tucker Carlson, who clearly licks his finger first thing in the morning to figure out which way the wind is blowing.

We are not an island. We have interests abroad and always will. Why else do you think we have diplomatic relations with the Gulf States? And so, setting history aside, in that part of the world, we have no more loyal or effective an ally than Israel, and they are getting it in every hole right now. It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business.

I'm not stupid. I don't know how Carlson actually feels about Jews because I don't actually know how devout he is. He is in a class of people who say shit publicly for a living. You actually never know what any of those people truly think about anything, if they actually think anything at all.

But I can tell you this: he has turned on the only place in which any Jew anywhere in the world can seek asylum from anywhere else, as they've had to over time. 16 million Jews in the world and half live there, and the other half (except for the token dip shits) view it as an important aspect of Judaism. Said another way, it is every hard to be anti-Israel w/o being at least a little anti-Jew. They've been kicked out of and persecuted in every place in Europe and every place in the middle east. This is the work-out for that prior evil and they have been surrounded by hostile neighbors since the moment that work-out was put into effect. They fight because they have to and if they don't they're gone. The Saudis and some of the other Gulf States have normalized relations with them not because they like them but because they respect them and know they are part of the no-fucking-around crew. If Carlson really doesn't care, then he can say it once and start talking about something else. But he's not. He's running his man-pleaser 24/7 about this. He's no friend to the Jews.

People are starting to be openly antisemitic. I see it all the time ... people saying shit with "Jew" in it that would have gotten them fired 3 years ago. Huge shift happening, and people like Anna Kasparian, Cenk Uyuger and Abby Martin are normalizing it (and frankly encouraging it). Tucker is more like those people than he is like me now. While "Jew hater" may be a bit strong, it's not crazy and he is more aligned with their views than he his with mine.

Yes, you can be critical of the Israeli government and not be antisemitic. I think even Ern knows that (maybe). But you can't side with Palestinian Arabs if you know the history of that relationship at all and you can't support full right of return for them and argue that the Zionist state is illegal or immoral and call yourself of friend of the Jews.

If Tucker is still someone you like, I'd take a closer look. This has nothing to do with algos. This is the issue I'm most engaged in now for going on 3 or 4 years. My information does not come from Instagram.
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Yes, independent of any conversation about Tucker, I have noticed for a couple years now rising antisemitism in the media and occasionally around me. But Tucker turning on Trump, is not the same as Tucker turning on the USA, which is the country that has given asylum to Jewish people, as you said.

And things can get murky and complicated. I think Candace has been 95% on target with her assessment on the Charlie Kirk assassination and fallout, as well as the genocidal destruction in Gaza. But I have also read a handful of tweets from her that make me uncomfortable because it feels like she is making broad-based claims about Jewish people as opposed to the Israeli government. I think Trump has done a lot of great things, but getting dragged into this war for obvious reasons was a mistake and it might destroy his legacy. His focus has been on energy dominance but now he is spending a huge chunk of time and energy on this Iran stuff, when we have tons of problems and many enemies already inside the wire of the USA, that are now playing second fiddle. He is a flawed man, but I remain a supporter overall for sure.

Finally, I have watched/listened to probably 70% of Tucker's podcasts-- many hours of him talking and pontificating. That man is not bigoted against Jewish people. The level of vitriol against him is shocking and feels ginned-up to me. Just like how vitriol is ginned-up against Trump.
 
HHusky said:
Wrongheaded to leave once we were already there. No reason to believe Daddy would have handled leaving better, but we’ll never know. Daddy and Joe equally wrong in desire to cut and run.
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Nobody can make the clear assumption that Trump wants to cut and run. He keeps everyone off-balance like a young Randy Johnson
 
DerekJohnson said:
Yes, independent of any conversation about Tucker, I have noticed for a couple years now rising antisemitism in the media and occasionally around me. But Tucker turning on Trump, is not the same as Tucker turning on the USA, which is the country that has given asylum to Jewish people, as you said.

And things can get murky and complicated. I think Candace has been 95% on target with her assessment on the Charlie Kirk assassination and fallout, as well as the genocidal destruction in Gaza. But I have also read a handful of tweets from her that make me uncomfortable because it feels like she is making broad-based claims about Jewish people as opposed to the Israeli government. I think Trump has done a lot of great things, but getting dragged into this war for obvious reasons was a mistake and it might destroy his legacy. His focus has been on energy dominance but now he is spending a huge chunk of time and energy on this Iran stuff, when we have tons of problems and many enemies already inside the wire of the USA, that are now playing second fiddle. He is a flawed man, but I remain a supporter overall for sure.

Finally, I have watched/listened to probably 70% of Tucker's podcasts-- many hours of him talking and pontificating. That man is not bigoted against Jewish people. The level of vitriol against him is shocking and feels ginned-up to me. Just like how vitriol is ginned-up against Trump.
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People have a hard time differentiating between Israel (the country), Jews (followers of Judaism), Zionism (an ideology) and Moussad (a government intelligence agency). There’s others but that’s a broad overview.

Throbber will be more specific in his use of language going forward. Criticism of Netenyahu (for example) is not a blanket criticism of Jews. That’s like being critical of the Pope and lumping southern baptists in as well.

Candace and Tucker need to do a better job of differentiating as well.
 
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DerekJohnson said:
Yes, independent of any conversation about Tucker, I have noticed for a couple years now rising antisemitism in the media and occasionally around me. But Tucker turning on Trump, is not the same as Tucker turning on the USA, which is the country that has given asylum to Jewish people, as you said.

And things can get murky and complicated. I think Candace has been 95% on target with her assessment on the Charlie Kirk assassination and fallout, as well as the genocidal destruction in Gaza. But I have also read a handful of tweets from her that make me uncomfortable because it feels like she is making broad-based claims about Jewish people as opposed to the Israeli government. I think Trump has done a lot of great things, but getting dragged into this war for obvious reasons was a mistake and it might destroy his legacy. His focus has been on energy dominance but now he is spending a huge chunk of time and energy on this Iran stuff, when we have tons of problems and many enemies already inside the wire of the USA, that are now playing second fiddle. He is a flawed man, but I remain a supporter overall for sure.

Finally, I have watched/listened to probably 70% of Tucker's podcasts-- many hours of him talking and pontificating. That man is not bigoted against Jewish people. The level of vitriol against him is shocking and feels ginned-up to me. Just like how vitriol is ginned-up against Trump.
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I'll allow a portion of that.

I would just add that nothing you hear from him will tell you how he really feels about anything. And, although I'm a little pissed off at him now and hence a little biased, I will say that notwithstanding my prior support of him I have always thought Tucker to be a little full of shit, so I meant what I said earlier - there really is no way to know what's in his head other than getting him wasted and pulling him into your confidence.

This pure isolationist take was great for elections and as a base philosophical platform to which Trump should default, but there is a canyon of room between classic neo-con doctrine and this exaggerated PTSD isolationism that we saw in the country between WWI and WWII. Sometimes, we get involved in shit because it makes sense to get involved. Israel is a key ally in a volatile part of the world in which we have important interests.

I don't want to see anyone running victory laps over Venezuela and Cuba and then freaking out about the Iranian campaign. If we can force Iran into becoming another Gulf State, we eliminate the largest source of funding and sponsorship of terror groups, which benefits everyone, the Israelis are in a better spot, our friends among the Gulf States are in a better spot and America is in a better spot. All of that is in tension with China's spot.
 
PurpleThrobber said:
People have a hard time differentiating between Israel (the country), Jews (followers of Judaism), Zionism (an ideology) and Moussad (a government intelligence agency).
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Only the bigots and the dummies. The rest of us understand full well the difference and, just as importantly, the relationship between those things. The thing that I think you're glossing over is how fundamentally important Israel, and hence Zionism (you don't get one without the other) is to the Jewish diaspora. Israel isn't to a Jew what Rome is to a Catholic. Jewish people, particularly those who hail from Eastern Europe (and I know plenty of them) are hardliners for a very good reason.

An island of reason, liberty, tolerance, fairness and prosperity in a sea of crazy radical shit and nonsense. Imagine not giving a shit about them.

I'll say it again: they don't really need our shitty friendship. The Israelis can hold their own with the status quo. But God help us all if the Iranians continue to be governed by the crazies and they do in fact develop a nuke. The Israelis have a nuke and if they ever thought the Iranians were going to go there they'd pre-empt it. And then we all have a problem.

There is a reason the Saudis want us to continue pounding on Iran. They live there. They know who they are for real.
 
creepycoug said:
Only the bigots and the dummies. The rest of us understand full well the difference and, just as importantly, the relationship between those things. The thing that I think you're glossing over is how fundamentally important Israel, and hence Zionism (you don't get one without the other) is to the Jewish diaspora. Israel isn't to a Jew what Rome is to a Catholic. Jewish people, particularly those who hail from Eastern Europe (and I know plenty of them) are hardliners for a very good reason.

An island of reason, liberty, tolerance, fairness and prosperity in a sea of crazy radical shit and nonsense. Imagine not giving a shit about them.

I'll say it again: they don't really need our shitty friendship. The Israelis can hold their own with the status quo. But God help us all if the Iranians continue to be governed by the crazies and they do in fact develop a nuke. The Israelis have a nuke and if they ever thought the Iranians were going to go there they'd pre-empt it. And then we all have a problem.

There is a reason the Saudis want us to continue pounding on Iran. They live there. They know who they are for real.
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Is your position that Americans are bound to support any and all initiatives of which Israel is a proponent?
 
creepycoug said:
Stop it. You're better than that.
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Then don’t be so dismissive when Americans opinions are at odds with Israel’s actions

The Venn diagram of mutual interests is the only logical conclusion to foreign matters. There is no obligation for any sovereign state to be 100% in support or alignment of any other sovereign state.
 
PurpleThrobber said:
There is no obligation for any sovereign state to be 100% in support or alignment of any other sovereign state.
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You might need an oil change for your rhetoric machine; you've been driving it pretty hard.

Nobody said anything about 100%. Let's stay on topic rather than navel gazing about hypothetical limitations to our support for one of our greatest allies. They are on the money 99.9999% of the time.
 
creepycoug said:
You might need an oil change for your rhetoric machine; you've been driving it pretty hard.

Nobody every said anything about 100%. Let's stay on topic rather than navel gazing about hypothetical limitations to our support for one of our greatest allies.
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When inflammatory terms like “bigot” and “dummy” are placed in responses directly quoting a Throbber post. that isn’t navel gazing. That is confrontational.

Killing mullahs has never been in question.

Allies should always be in question. No matter how special or historic the relationship may appear
 
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