America's greatest MUST WIN military victory of all time?

[YellowSnow]

Bunker Hill. Even though we technically lost, we killed twice our number of dirty Brits, and this battle is what made Americans really believe we could do it. 'Murica!

Yes I know it was a MUST WIN question. Again, we lost the hill, but killed twice our number lost. And it won the loyalty of the public. So it's a win.

Event though it was fought on Breed's Hill and a moral victory, but still...

I think Trenton was our most important Revolutionary War win. Sure, it was a sneak attack on drunken krauts, but Worshington had been on a Sarkesque skid all through 1776 and they w/o a win for moral all might have been lost.

 

[ThomasFremont]

Washington just had to stay alive and avoid a rout. By evading and Sarking his way to a spirit of ‘76 record, he allowed the SEC to get it’s guys in there and roll Cornwallis.

 

[YellowSnow]

only revolutionary war battles should be included in the poll... WW2 ..we still be USA ... just not US OF MF A ... Civil war ... nah same as ww2 ... maybe Baltimore cuz the bloody brits wanted to take us back ...

Agree on Revolutionary War vs WWII stuff. Midway was clearly out most consequential victory of WWII, but even if we had lost or had it been strategically inconclusive, the Japanese still never had the capacity to invade the west coast. They would have taken Hawaii at the most and we could have won it back in a year or two if needed.

Hard to say if the Revolution would have ended with a loss at Saratoga. It certainly gave us a chance to win by convincing France of the viability of our cause. In some ways Trenton was even more critical because Washington had been getting his ass kicked since Long Island earlier in the year.

Still, I have to go with Gettysburg. If Lee wins a major victory in Pennsylvania, it probably would have been politically impossible for the North to carry on the war, in spite of Grant's victory at Vicksburg.

Midway wasn't about land as much as it was about the Japanese wanting to wipe out the carriers they missed at Pearl Harbor. If they do that, America doesn't have the firepower to beat Japan. As it turned out, Japan hosed themselves by getting their carrier fleet wiped out in five minutes.

Gettysburg was great, but it was Lee throwing a wild haymaker punch that he knew he had little chance of landing.

I'd vote Antietam though. No victory there, odds are Lee takes most of Maryland and possibly DC. Also, No Emancipation Proclamation, no true setting the playing field of what the Civil War is about, and the SEC wins another Natty.

Disagree on both points. A loss at Midway would have been disastrous and Japan's defensive perimeter would have been much stronger with all or most of our carriers sunk. But those ships and pilots were all replaceable in time.[/b] We put something like 24 Essex class carriers to sea before the end of the war and thousands of well trained pilots. Where as Japan had like 1/10 th of our industrial capacity and could never recover once they lost those 4 flat tops.

Antietam was still early in the game. It would have delayed the Emancipation Proclamation but short of his army marching on Washington, the body counts which so demoralized the North hadn't piled up to the extent they had by mid 1863 (post Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville).

Hard disagree.

In 1942, it took 12-15 months to build one aircraft carrier. If Japan wiped out our? fleet, it would've been a minimum of two years before we? could have done anything in the Pacific, during which time Japan would take whatever land and resources they wanted. There may not be more of a spectacular backfire.

And Antietam was early. But the SEC needed it to be a quick war if they wanted to win. The goal of Antietam was flip Maryland and Kentucky, get England and France to recognize them and begin a march on Warshington. All of which went went up in flames.

People forget that Antietam was a win of the ACC. Vicksburg, Shilo, Atlanta, etc, were the Tuff wins in SEC country.

I love that we have so many history nerds at HCH. Warms my heart.

 

[Swaye]

I like battle hawt talk.

 

[Swaye]

Can we talk about the greatest battle ever fought on American soil?

Suck it Custer.

 

[ThomasFremont]

If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.

 

[YellowSnow]

If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.

The Soviets would have still ended up in Berlin even if Overlord failed. Probably not by April 1945 but it was still going to happen. Consider that 90% of all Whermacht casualties in the war were inflicted by the Soviets. The importance of Normandy was that it enabled us to keep much of Europe out of the Soviet sphere.

 

[YellowSnow]

Can we talk about the greatest battle ever fought on American soil?

Suck it Custer.

@swaye you had once chance to kill @creepycoug on the beaches and make sure none of those 3 boats got back to Europe with the trip report. After that, it was game over.

 

[ThomasFremont]

If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.

The Soviets would have still ended up in Berlin even if Overlord failed. Probably not by April 1945 but it was still going to happen. Consider that 90% of all Whermacht casualties in the war were inflicted by the Soviets. The importance of Normandy was that it enabled us to keep much of Europe out of the Soviet sphere.

I don’t know. A massive defeat at Normandy might have totally stalled the Allies. Second guessing is a bitch. Just look at Africa and Italy.

Meanwhile, the Nazis would have been riding high, had more time and resources to devote to the East.

Let’s say the Soviets roll them anyways (most likely)...if we aren’t meeting them in Berlin, do they stop? I doubt it. Now we are maybe meeting them in Paris? Do we stalemate or do we fight them now that they’ve violated our alliance by invading France (under the pretense of wiping out remaining Nazi units/leaders)? Either way, seems much worse than the way it played out.

 

[PurpleThrobber]

No Battle of New Orleans, no Old Hickory. No Old Hickory, no Trail of Tears. No Trail of Tears, no @Swaye descendants hooking up. No @Swaye, just a bunch of old rich white guys posting here.

Andrew Jackson founded motherfucking Hardcore Husky. No two ways about it.

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.

[Chorus:]
We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

[Chorus]

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

We fired our cannon 'til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

 

[YellowSnow]

No Battle of New Orleans, no Old Hickory. No Old Hickory, no Trail of Tears. No Trail of Tears, no @Swaye descendants hooking up. No @Swaye, just a bunch of old rich white guys posting here.

Andrew Jackson founded motherfucking Hardcore Husky. No two ways about it.

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.

[Chorus:]
We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

[Chorus]

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

We fired our cannon 'til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

 

[PurpleThrobber]

No Battle of New Orleans, no Old Hickory. No Old Hickory, no Trail of Tears. No Trail of Tears, no @Swaye descendants hooking up. No @Swaye, just a bunch of old rich white guys posting here.

Andrew Jackson founded motherfucking Hardcore Husky. No two ways about it.

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.

[Chorus:]
We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

[Chorus]

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

We fired our cannon 'til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

Love that song - and North to Alaska - but Johnny Motherfucking Horton had some pretty rayciss tunes if you look hard enough. Found that out back in the days of Napster[/s] buying my first legal downloads.

 

[YellowSnow]

No Battle of New Orleans, no Old Hickory. No Old Hickory, no Trail of Tears. No Trail of Tears, no @Swaye descendants hooking up. No @Swaye, just a bunch of old rich white guys posting here.

Andrew Jackson founded motherfucking Hardcore Husky. No two ways about it.

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.

[Chorus:]
We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

[Chorus]

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

We fired our cannon 'til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

Love that song - and North to Alaska - but Johnny Motherfucking Horton had some pretty rayciss tunes if you look hard enough. Found that out back in the days of Napster[/s] buying my first legal downloads.

North to Alaska is the greatest song about about Huskies after my avatar...

He talked to his team of Huskies as he mushed them across the snow

 

[YellowSnow]

If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.

The Soviets would have still ended up in Berlin even if Overlord failed. Probably not by April 1945 but it was still going to happen. Consider that 90% of all Whermacht casualties in the war were inflicted by the Soviets. The importance of Normandy was that it enabled us to keep much of Europe out of the Soviet sphere.

I don’t know. A massive defeat at Normandy might have totally stalled the Allies. Second guessing is a bitch. Just look at Africa and Italy.

Meanwhile, the Nazis would have been riding high, had more time and resources to devote to the East.

Let’s say the Soviets roll them anyways (most likely)...if we aren’t meeting them in Berlin, do they stop? I doubt it. Now we are maybe meeting them in Paris? Do we stalemate or do we fight them now that they’ve violated our alliance by invading France (under the pretense of wiping out remaining Nazi units/leaders)? Either way, seems much worse than the way it played out.

We can agree getting thwarted on the beaches of Normandy would have been a disaster. It's difficult to say how far the Soviets would have advanced. We had some leverage in the sense that they were still receiving massive lend lease aid from us. We know the bomb was ready by Aug 1945. Might Germany have received it first?

 

[RaceBannon]

If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.

The Soviets would have still ended up in Berlin even if Overlord failed. Probably not by April 1945 but it was still going to happen. Consider that 90% of all Whermacht casualties in the war were inflicted by the Soviets. The importance of Normandy was that it enabled us to keep much of Europe out of the Soviet sphere.

I don’t know. A massive defeat at Normandy might have totally stalled the Allies. Second guessing is a bitch. Just look at Africa and Italy.

Meanwhile, the Nazis would have been riding high, had more time and resources to devote to the East.

Let’s say the Soviets roll them anyways (most likely)...if we aren’t meeting them in Berlin, do they stop? I doubt it. Now we are maybe meeting them in Paris? Do we stalemate or do we fight them now that they’ve violated our alliance by invading France (under the pretense of wiping out remaining Nazi units/leaders)? Either way, seems much worse than the way it played out.

We can agree getting thwarted on the beaches of Normandy would have been a disaster. It's difficult to say how far the Soviets would have advanced. We had some leverage in the sense that they were still receiving massive lend lease aid from us. We know the bomb was ready by Aug 1945. Might Germany have received it first?

My woke history taught me that the bomb was reserved for the yellow folks not the white folks

Probably because the Japs bombed us and we were still really pissed off

Or racist

 

[YellowSnow]

If the Allies take a loss at Normandy, fortress Europe holds and we enter a stalemate. The 101st and 82nd Airborne would be stranded behind enemy lines with no hope of resupply. At the very least many more casualties in follow up landing attempts. Nazis don’t get pressured on multiple fronts. A lot of things have to go right to end up with the same outcome. Not a lot of things have to happen for Hitler and Nazi Germany to remain a military power.

The Soviets would have still ended up in Berlin even if Overlord failed. Probably not by April 1945 but it was still going to happen. Consider that 90% of all Whermacht casualties in the war were inflicted by the Soviets. The importance of Normandy was that it enabled us to keep much of Europe out of the Soviet sphere.

I don’t know. A massive defeat at Normandy might have totally stalled the Allies. Second guessing is a bitch. Just look at Africa and Italy.

Meanwhile, the Nazis would have been riding high, had more time and resources to devote to the East.

Let’s say the Soviets roll them anyways (most likely)...if we aren’t meeting them in Berlin, do they stop? I doubt it. Now we are maybe meeting them in Paris? Do we stalemate or do we fight them now that they’ve violated our alliance by invading France (under the pretense of wiping out remaining Nazi units/leaders)? Either way, seems much worse than the way it played out.

We can agree getting thwarted on the beaches of Normandy would have been a disaster. It's difficult to say how far the Soviets would have advanced. We had some leverage in the sense that they were still receiving massive lend lease aid from us. We know the bomb was ready by Aug 1945. Might Germany have received it first?

My woke history taught me that the bomb was reserved for the yellow folks not the white folks

Probably because the Japs bombed us and we were still really pissed off

Or racist

They are full of shit. We would have used it on Germany if needed. We? had not qualms about BBQ ing kraut civilians. In fact, the fire bombing of Dresden occurred well before LeMay started fire bombing Japan's cities.

 

[RaceBannon]

Yep the bomb was just more efficient and risked less lives to wipe out 80,000 people

WW2 was brutal

 

[RaceBannon]

The Brits did Dresden

That was revenge too

 

[YellowSnow]

The Brits did Dresden

That was revenge too

It was a team effort. They sent 769 bombers to our 527.

 

[ThomasFremont]

Yep the bomb was just more efficient and risked less lives to wipe out 80,000 people

WW2 was brutal

Better 80k of theirs than 1 of ours.

War is hell.