ACLU

[oregonblitzkrieg]

I have citations I can link, but i'm not going to unless you really want it.. Please man, think things through and read before you pop off. It's embarrassing. You're like most fucktards in this country who react to the news in front of them and don't use any critical thinking skills or do any research.

Many right wingers, and some left wingers, oppose looser immigration policies... That is a slap in the face to what liberty and freedom mean and what America stands for.

As I stated before:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door"

Restrictions on immigration are a restriction of freedom, and I'm not sure why so many so called patriots support them. Maybe it's because they assume that immigrants are welfare cases and bad for American wages, employment, and the economy in general. Not true in most cases....

People come to America for a better life, not to live on welfare. A paper from Cato Institute (that's my source? yes) found that poor immigrants and their children (both legal and illegal) use public benefits at a lower rate than the U.S. born poor. Also, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and the Manhattan Institute found that immigrants have a much higher labor force participation rate than those born in the United States , meaning that immigrants come to the states to work, not to collect government benefits.

While people think that immigrants are tremendous costs to the government, the Congressional Budget Office says otherwise:

"Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that. over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."

People, especially right wingers, claim that immigrants reduce wages and employment, but not so fast . According to Fact Check.org:

“There is broad agreement among economists that while immigrants may push down wages for some (high school drop outs) , the overall effect is to increase average wages for American-born workers"

Research from labor economist Giovanni Peri and others states:

"The effect of immigration on U.S. born employment is positive." and " Statistical analysis of state-level data shows that immigrants expand the economy’s productive capacity by stimulating investment and promoting specialization. This produces efficiency gains and boosts income per worker. At the same time, evidence is scant that immigrants diminish the employment opportunities of U.S.-born workers."

There isn't strong economic case against looser immigration laws. Consider the fact that when a Mexican worker comes to America, his wages more than double . If you were in his/her position, wouldn't you want to come to America, which is a land of opportunity?

It's hypocritical people seriously want to engage in closed border policies considering the ancestors of European Americans came to America for better lives, yet many would deny that same opportunity to people in Latin America. Nevermind the fact that closed border policies would, according to recent research, make the U.S. born worse off.

I haven't even started on the failed war on drugs and how that plays into all of this...

The research suggests that none of the economic claims made by knee jerk reaction retards like OBK are true.

now good day sir!!

I SAID GOOD DAY!!!

Restrictions on immigration are not restrictions on our freedom. They are restrictions on the "freedom" of foreigners in regards to our country. Most countries seem to think such restrictions are reasonable. Why don't you?

"Immigrants have a much higher labor participation rate than US citizens." No shit. Because they're shills that will accept sub-standard wages because they're twice the wages they'd receive in their own countries. The economy is already a steaming pile of dog shit. Nothing will convince me that we need more Mexicans here competing with out-of-work American citizens.

Who gives a fuck about tax revenues. That only adds to the funds at the government's disposal to waste.

“There is broad agreement among economists that while immigrants may push down wages for some (high school drop outs) , the overall effect is to increase average wages for American-born workers" Most people don't attend and graduate from college. So it's ok for the Mexicans to flood in and push down their wages?

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

Answer this question point blank if you can. You've said the restrictions on immigration are restrictions on freedom. Do you think we should do absolutely nothing about the border situation and let whoever wants to come here come? Just walk over the border and you're in?

 

[Swaye]

We do need them, and when they are properly integrated they do help the economy (good links Damone), but I do not like the wild west approach where hundreds of thousands of them just flood us yearly, and we are seemingly not prepared for that.

Disagree. Why do we need them?

Houses don't clean themselves. And, as the data points out, they provide more tax investiture into the system than they draw, but only when legalized. Until then, they are a huge money drain.

 

[MikeDamone]

Answer this question point blank if you can. You've said the restrictions on immigration are restrictions on freedom. Do you think we should do absolutely nothing about the border situation and let whoever wants to come here come? Just walk over the border and you're in?

It's a difficult subject. But open borders are a benefit to Americans and the immigrants. The issue arises with the welfare state, which I very much oppose. It proves difficult to deny them benefits. But as I have already posted, even with the welfare state, the benefits of open borders out weigh the negative. The welfare state does lessen the benefits some. Given that the welfare state is not likely to go away, I wouldn't make any significant changes to they way it's working now.

Why do you keep going over the same questions with me when I have already laid out the answers in previous posts.

And like I said, I'm always happy to read research that would change my mind. However, I do know it's difficult to find research that disputes freedom and liberty over oppression and tyranny.

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

 

[dnc]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

This is basically unAmerican. Not just the willful disregard for America The Melting Pot, The Statue Of Liberty and all that. But our economy, watered down though it may be, is essentially founded on the principle that competition brings out best in people and that stifling competition brings out the worst. Immigration is good for the economy as a whole and competition is good for the high school dropouts. What's the problem?

Also last I checked dropping out of high school was a choice, with consequences. As the only high school graduate of four children in my family I have a real hard time feeling sorry for those who didn't give a fuck in school.

 

[OZONE]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

If you want a better job, go back to school, and raise your kids not to drop out.

 

[dnc]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

If you want a better job, go back to school, and raise your kids not to drop out.

HRYK.

And how the fuck we are five pages deep into this bitch and no one has poasted this yet I'll never know.

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

This is basically unAmerican. Not just the willful disregard for America The Melting Pot, The Statue Of Liberty and all that. But our economy, watered down though it may be, is essentially founded on the principle that competition brings out best in people and that stifling competition brings out the worst. Immigration is good for the economy as a whole and competition is good for the high school dropouts. What's the problem?

Also last I checked dropping out of high school was a choice, with consequences. As the only high school graduate of four children in my family I have a real hard time feeling sorry for those who didn't give a fuck in school.

The idea that competition brings out the best in people is overrated. Sure it makes most people give their best effort. But it also breeds a cutthroat dog eat dog atmosphere. Why allow foreigners to compete for a slice of the American pie? They can do that in their own countries. America was founded by immigrants, blah, blah. True. But that's no longer very relevant in this day and age. We now have more than 300 million people. We don't need millions more people competing for the limited amount of resources and money available here. The economy is already stretched thin as it is. I wonder what China would think of your immigration stance.

 

[MikeDamone]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

Are you saying that even though the overall economy and well being of the majority is increased, your basis for closing boarders is to protect high school drop outs? That's fine is you are, I just want to know if that's the foundation of your position.

 

[dnc]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

This is basically unAmerican. Not just the willful disregard for America The Melting Pot, The Statue Of Liberty and all that. But our economy, watered down though it may be, is essentially founded on the principle that competition brings out best in people and that stifling competition brings out the worst. Immigration is good for the economy as a whole and competition is good for the high school dropouts. What's the problem?

Also last I checked dropping out of high school was a choice, with consequences. As the only high school graduate of four children in my family I have a real hard time feeling sorry for those who didn't give a fuck in school.

The idea that competition brings out the best in people is overrated. Sure it makes most people give their best effort. But it also breeds a cutthroat dog eat dog atmosphere. Why allow foreigners to compete for a slice of the American pie? They can do that in their own countries. America was founded by immigrants, blah, blah. True. But that's no longer very relevant in this day and age. We now have more than 300 million people. We don't need millions more people competing for the limited amount of resources and money available here. The economy is already stretched thin as it is. I wonder what China would think of your immigration stance.

Fuck China. Why do you hate AMERICA, dammit?

OTOH, suggesting we should take our immigration policy ideas from a communist nation of over a billion seems extremely relevant, so kudos for that.

 

[MikeDamone]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

This is basically unAmerican. Not just the willful disregard for America The Melting Pot, The Statue Of Liberty and all that. But our economy, watered down though it may be, is essentially founded on the principle that competition brings out best in people and that stifling competition brings out the worst. Immigration is good for the economy as a whole and competition is good for the high school dropouts. What's the problem?

Also last I checked dropping out of high school was a choice, with consequences. As the only high school graduate of four children in my family I have a real hard time feeling sorry for those who didn't give a fuck in school.

The idea that competition brings out the best in people is overrated. Sure it makes most people give their best effort. But it also breeds a cutthroat dog eat dog atmosphere. Why allow foreigners to compete for a slice of the American pie? They can do that in their own countries. America was founded by immigrants, blah, blah. True. But that's no longer very relevant in this day and age. We now have more than 300 million people. We don't need millions more people competing for the limited amount of resources and money available here. The economy is already stretched thin as it is. I wonder what China would think of your immigration stance.

You really don't get it. This all goes back to our previous discussions regarding your lack of basic knowledge of economics. You have some core options that have no basis in any model of prosperity that has ever existed.

Just as a start, your first lesson needs to be that the economy isn't a fixed pie. I know we have been over this economic fallacy and I provided some links for you to educate yourself on the basics, but for some reason you either do your homework. Or maybe you have read them and disagree. If that is the case, I would like to hear your position in why you think the economy is a fixed pie..with citations of course, not just what you think or heard somewhere.

TIA

 

[MikeDamone]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

This is basically unAmerican. Not just the willful disregard for America The Melting Pot, The Statue Of Liberty and all that. But our economy, watered down though it may be, is essentially founded on the principle that competition brings out best in people and that stifling competition brings out the worst. Immigration is good for the economy as a whole and competition is good for the high school dropouts. What's the problem?

Also last I checked dropping out of high school was a choice, with consequences. As the only high school graduate of four children in my family I have a real hard time feeling sorry for those who didn't give a fuck in school.

The idea that competition brings out the best in people is overrated. Sure it makes most people give their best effort. But it also breeds a cutthroat dog eat dog atmosphere. Why allow foreigners to compete for a slice of the American pie? They can do that in their own countries. America was founded by immigrants, blah, blah. True. But that's no longer very relevant in this day and age. We now have more than 300 million people. We don't need millions more people competing for the limited amount of resources and money available here. The economy is already stretched thin as it is. I wonder what China would think of your immigration stance.

Fuck China. Why do you hate AMERICA, dammit?

OTOH, suggesting we should take our immigration policy ideas from a communist nation of over a billion seems extremely relevant, so kudos for that.

OBK just can't seem to make an argument without throwing out a logical fallacy. It's his M.O.

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

Are you saying that even though the overall economy and well being of the majority is increased, your basis for closing boarders is to protect high school drop outs? That's fine is you are, I just want to know if that's the foundation of your position.

Your utilitarian viewpoint that has some merit. But I don't agree that a vast horde of unskilled latinos will improve the well being of the overall economy and the majority. When Rome was at its height everyone wanted a piece of it. Their society gradually caved and caved to the point that eventually they even had emperors that were no longer Roman. It became too much of a melting pot and in time the barbarians overwhelmed it.

Even now Europe is undergoing a change. It's become infested with muslims/arabs. Walk around in Marseilles and you won't be able to tell if you're in France or Turkey. There are small towns in England that have been overrun. You really wonder if you're in England or Morocco. France experiences muslim/arab riots. Britain puts up with them calling for the destruction of their own nation.

Obviously latinos are a more peaceable people. I'm not racist. I have nothing against them. At the same time I'm not really eager to see them become the majority. I really doubt Europeans are eager to see arabs become the majority there either. Plenty of room in Mexico, Central America and South America for citizens in that area the world to live and flourish. They don't need to do it here. Also you will have to extend your logic to embrace hostile arabs/muslims that have no intention of assimilating as well, since your policy would be a completely open border.

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

This is basically unAmerican. Not just the willful disregard for America The Melting Pot, The Statue Of Liberty and all that. But our economy, watered down though it may be, is essentially founded on the principle that competition brings out best in people and that stifling competition brings out the worst. Immigration is good for the economy as a whole and competition is good for the high school dropouts. What's the problem?

Also last I checked dropping out of high school was a choice, with consequences. As the only high school graduate of four children in my family I have a real hard time feeling sorry for those who didn't give a fuck in school.

The idea that competition brings out the best in people is overrated. Sure it makes most people give their best effort. But it also breeds a cutthroat dog eat dog atmosphere. Why allow foreigners to compete for a slice of the American pie? They can do that in their own countries. America was founded by immigrants, blah, blah. True. But that's no longer very relevant in this day and age. We now have more than 300 million people. We don't need millions more people competing for the limited amount of resources and money available here. The economy is already stretched thin as it is. I wonder what China would think of your immigration stance.

Fuck China. Why do you hate AMERICA, dammit?

OTOH, suggesting we should take our immigration policy ideas from a communist nation of over a billion seems extremely relevant, so kudos for that.

If we want a billion new Americans in the near future we're following the correct path. Forget the paperwork. Forget the people who do it legally. Open border. Come one come all.

 

[OZONE]

and in time the barbarians overwhelmed it.
I'm not really eager to see them become the majority.

Who do you think was the majority before white people became the majority?

 

[MikeDamone]

My viewpoint is that if the presence of new immigrants adversely affects the economic situation of any group of American citizens (I know, you think it's ok to overlook the high school dropouts), they should be prevented from coming here.

Are you saying that even though the overall economy and well being of the majority is increased, your basis for closing boarders is to protect high school drop outs? That's fine is you are, I just want to know if that's the foundation of your position.

Your utilitarian viewpoint that has some merit. But I don't agree that a vast horde of unskilled latinos will improve the well being of the overall economy and the majority. When Rome was at its height everyone wanted a piece of it. Their society gradually caved and caved to the point that eventually they even had emperors that were no longer Roman. It became too much of a melting pot and in time the barbarians overwhelmed it.

Even now Europe is undergoing a change. It's become infested with muslims/arabs. Walk around in Marseilles and you won't be able to tell if you're in France or Turkey. There are small towns in England that have been overrun. You really wonder if you're in England or Morocco. France experiences muslim/arab riots. Britain puts up with them calling for the destruction of their own nation.

Obviously latinos are a more peaceable people. I'm not racist. I have nothing against them. At the same time I'm not really eager to see them become the majority. I really doubt Europeans are eager to see arabs become the majority there either. Plenty of room in Mexico, Central America and South America for citizens in that area the world to live and flourish. They don't need to do it here. Also you will have to extend your logic to embrace hostile arabs/muslims that have no intention of assimilating as well, since your policy would be a completely open border.

Again with the red herring. Can you simply provide some facts and data rather than just disagreeing. The data is not on your side.

 

[dnc]

and in time the barbarians overwhelmed it.
I'm not really eager to see them become the majority.

Who do you think was the majority before white people became the majority?

forum.hardcorehusky.com/discussion/10848/iroquois-vs-canada-world-lax-semis-open-thread

 

[PurpleJ]

OBK is still talking? When will he take the hint and LEAVE?!

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

OBK is still talking? When will he take the hint and LEAVE?!

I like to piggy back ride on other posters instead of actually participating in discussions. I'm spineless like that.