ACLU

[PurpleJ]

Judging by the way OBK likes to try to cherry pick facts, I'm guessing he lost his agricultural job to an immigrant.

I swear. I try to help him and actually spent a fair amount of time on my response. But if he isn't even going to try, I give up.

That post was me giving up on the argument. It's like arguing with a cartoon character.

 

[allpurpleallgold]

I haven't seen a beating like this since Sark coached a road game.

 

[PurpleJ]

OBK brought a live Mexican to his basement to prepare for this thread. We all know how that works out...

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

I have citations I can link, but i'm not going to unless you really want it.. Please man, think things through and read before you pop off. It's embarrassing. You're like most fucktards in this country who react to the news in front of them and don't use any critical thinking skills or do any research.

Many right wingers, and some left wingers, oppose looser immigration policies... That is a slap in the face to what liberty and freedom mean and what America stands for.

As I stated before:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door"

Restrictions on immigration are a restriction of freedom, and I'm not sure why so many so called patriots support them. Maybe it's because they assume that immigrants are welfare cases and bad for American wages, employment, and the economy in general. Not true in most cases....

People come to America for a better life, not to live on welfare. A paper from Cato Institute (that's my source? yes) found that poor immigrants and their children (both legal and illegal) use public benefits at a lower rate than the U.S. born poor. Also, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and the Manhattan Institute found that immigrants have a much higher labor force participation rate than those born in the United States , meaning that immigrants come to the states to work, not to collect government benefits.

While people think that immigrants are tremendous costs to the government, the Congressional Budget Office says otherwise:

"Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that. over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."

People, especially right wingers, claim that immigrants reduce wages and employment, but not so fast . According to Fact Check.org:

“There is broad agreement among economists that while immigrants may push down wages for some (high school drop outs) , the overall effect is to increase average wages for American-born workers"

Research from labor economist Giovanni Peri and others states:

"The effect of immigration on U.S. born employment is positive." and " Statistical analysis of state-level data shows that immigrants expand the economy’s productive capacity by stimulating investment and promoting specialization. This produces efficiency gains and boosts income per worker. At the same time, evidence is scant that immigrants diminish the employment opportunities of U.S.-born workers."

There isn't strong economic case against looser immigration laws. Consider the fact that when a Mexican worker comes to America, his wages more than double . If you were in his/her position, wouldn't you want to come to America, which is a land of opportunity?

It's hypocritical people seriously want to engage in closed border policies considering the ancestors of European Americans came to America for better lives, yet many would deny that same opportunity to people in Latin America. Nevermind the fact that closed border policies would, according to recent research, make the U.S. born worse off.

I haven't even started on the failed war on drugs and how that plays into all of this...

The research suggests that none of the economic claims made by knee jerk reaction retards like OBK are true.

now good day sir!!

I SAID GOOD DAY!!!

SWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON.

Yes we all know you passed Cock Sucking 101 with flying colors. Congrats.

 

[PurpleJ]

I have citations I can link, but i'm not going to unless you really want it.. Please man, think things through and read before you pop off. It's embarrassing. You're like most fucktards in this country who react to the news in front of them and don't use any critical thinking skills or do any research.

Many right wingers, and some left wingers, oppose looser immigration policies... That is a slap in the face to what liberty and freedom mean and what America stands for.

As I stated before:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door"

Restrictions on immigration are a restriction of freedom, and I'm not sure why so many so called patriots support them. Maybe it's because they assume that immigrants are welfare cases and bad for American wages, employment, and the economy in general. Not true in most cases....

People come to America for a better life, not to live on welfare. A paper from Cato Institute (that's my source? yes) found that poor immigrants and their children (both legal and illegal) use public benefits at a lower rate than the U.S. born poor. Also, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and the Manhattan Institute found that immigrants have a much higher labor force participation rate than those born in the United States , meaning that immigrants come to the states to work, not to collect government benefits.

While people think that immigrants are tremendous costs to the government, the Congressional Budget Office says otherwise:

"Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that. over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."

People, especially right wingers, claim that immigrants reduce wages and employment, but not so fast . According to Fact Check.org:

“There is broad agreement among economists that while immigrants may push down wages for some (high school drop outs) , the overall effect is to increase average wages for American-born workers"

Research from labor economist Giovanni Peri and others states:

"The effect of immigration on U.S. born employment is positive." and " Statistical analysis of state-level data shows that immigrants expand the economy’s productive capacity by stimulating investment and promoting specialization. This produces efficiency gains and boosts income per worker. At the same time, evidence is scant that immigrants diminish the employment opportunities of U.S.-born workers."

There isn't strong economic case against looser immigration laws. Consider the fact that when a Mexican worker comes to America, his wages more than double . If you were in his/her position, wouldn't you want to come to America, which is a land of opportunity?

It's hypocritical people seriously want to engage in closed border policies considering the ancestors of European Americans came to America for better lives, yet many would deny that same opportunity to people in Latin America. Nevermind the fact that closed border policies would, according to recent research, make the U.S. born worse off.

I haven't even started on the failed war on drugs and how that plays into all of this...

The research suggests that none of the economic claims made by knee jerk reaction retards like OBK are true.

now good day sir!!

I SAID GOOD DAY!!!

SWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON.

Yes we all know you passed Cock Sucking 101 with flying colors. Congrats.

Pick my crops DUCK!!!11

 

[Swaye]

Anyone who votes Patriots deserves a jagged flint mudslide while a pride of faggots buttrams them and shoves lemons in their mouths.

You have odd sexual fantasies.

You could probably seek help for that.

If you are interested in correcting your deviance.

Not interested. Obama told me I should be proud of who I am.

 

[Swaye]

God forbid that the richest nation on earth give legal guidance to people accused of crimes and facing deportation...

What part of illegal don't you understand? They don't have the right to legal guidance in the US because they don't even have the right to be here. If you want to pay for their legal guidance go ahead, but leave the rest of us out of it. We've got enough problems taking care of our own citizens.

I don't really give a shit if you want to argue that it is their right or not.

People in our land, accused of a crime... even the crime of being here illegally, should get legal guidance. Even if they can't afford it.

I'm guessing you flunked civics class?

Illegal aliens have no rights. End of story. Door. Ass. Out. If you want to live here, stand in line, wait your turn, do it legally. Do you think the fucking taxpayer should pay for their legal guidance? You need to be buttrammed by that pride of faggots if you do. A wall needs to be built to repel the illegal horde so we won't have to waste time and money refuting the idiocy of liberal nut jobs like yourself. Do you think Mexico or those central American countries would give us the same courtesy? Fuck no. It's straight to jail. Fuck off.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free... Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door"

I like to disagree with what's written in the Statue of Liberty, while presenting myself as a good American, that's what I like to do.

Point of order here...she was given to us by the French. I've never trusted her. She stares at me.

 

[Swaye]

I think both sides of this argument have merits, and faults. Illegals should be given representation to ease their deportation transition - that IS constitutional. But, unless these immigrants get on a LEGAL path to entry and citizenship, they should be deported. When they enter our immigration system legally, I am all for brining them in. We do need them, and when they are properly integrated they do help the economy (good links Damone), but I do not like the wild west approach where hundreds of thousands of them just flood us yearly, and we are seemingly not prepared for that.

We need to somehow come up with a solution that allows for reasonable path to citizenships but reduces the disorder and chaos at the border and in border towns. I don't have that solution, but surely if we can put a man on the moon we can better figure out border security and legalization processes, and harmonize them a bit so we aren't a sieve, nor a wall.

I still don't trust the Statue of Liberty. She hasn't moved in like 150 years. Shady.

 

[MikeDamone]

There isn't strong economic case against looser immigration laws. Consider the fact that when a Mexican worker comes to America, his wages more than double . If you were in his/her position, wouldn't you want to come to America, which is a land of opportunity?

What I would want if I were in his position is irrelevant. I think Switzerland is far superior to the United States and I would rather live there. Maybe I should show up at their border and enter illegally and expect them to pay for my legal representation while I'm taking advantage of their system. Then after they decide that I have indeed broken their laws (because it wasn't already obvious to all but the thickest retard, so lets all stand on pretense and go through the motions and take it through the courts), they can pay my deportation expenses and give me a free flight back to the United States.

jesus.. That's your response?

You exited the debate like you always do. Thinking you are this:

It's a waste of energy to respond to your points, as you already have everything dialed in and figured out. If you don't agree with something, you will arrogantly dismiss it. Your positions are sturdier than the foundations of the Earth.

I know it's hard for you to argue against researched opinions and facts when you pull numbers and opinions out of your ass. I'd give up to if I were you.

 

[BennyBeaver]

What our border should look like

 

[sarktastic]

God forbid that the richest nation on earth give legal guidance to people accused of crimes and facing deportation...

Absolutely. We ought to be following the example of our President, and see ourselves more as Citizens of the World. And let we of European descent not forget, we are just 15 generations removed from being illegal immigrants ourselves. Pocahontas didn't check our papers. She gave us maize and tobacco.

"Us"? I didn't get shit.

you have the right to exchange money for pretty plastic tokens that you can use to buy cheap drinks, a nice buffet and depending on the nation you travel to, a massage.

 

[sarktastic]

Upon doing some basic research, I have come to the conclusion that OBK is dead wrong here.

The Bill of Rights applies to everyone on American soil, citizen or not.

Which is why we should just shoot 'em in the river.

 

[MikeDamone]

God forbid that the richest nation on earth give legal guidance to people accused of crimes and facing deportation...

What part of illegal don't you understand? They don't have the right to legal guidance in the US because they don't even have the right to be here. If you want to pay for their legal guidance go ahead, but leave the rest of us out of it. We've got enough problems taking care of our own citizens.

I don't really give a shit if you want to argue that it is their right or not.

People in our land, accused of a crime... even the crime of being here illegally, should get legal guidance. Even if they can't afford it.

I'm guessing you flunked civics class?

Illegal aliens have no rights. End of story. Door. Ass. Out. If you want to live here, stand in line, wait your turn, do it legally. Do you think the fucking taxpayer should pay for their legal guidance? You need to be buttrammed by that pride of faggots if you do. A wall needs to be built to repel the illegal horde so we won't have to waste time and money refuting the idiocy of liberal nut jobs like yourself. Do you think Mexico or those central American countries would give us the same courtesy? Fuck no. It's straight to jail. Fuck off.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free... Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door"

I like to disagree with what's written in the Statue of Liberty, while presenting myself as a good American, that's what I like to do.

I like to quote my own poasts. That's what I like to do.

I like logical fallacies, that's what I like.

I like hiding behind a guise of superiority and rely on insults rather than arguments when I debate.

So I gave you a detailed argument of which I used third party unbiased data and you come back with "It's a waste of energy to respond to your points, as you already have everything dialed in and figured out"

You responded with a red herring about Switzerland (i.e. a type of logical fallacy).

I can only do so much to help educate you. At some point you need to give it some effort on your own.

 

[sarktastic]

God forbid that the richest nation on earth give legal guidance to people accused of crimes and facing deportation...

What part of illegal don't you understand? They don't have the right to legal guidance in the US because they don't even have the right to be here. If you want to pay for their legal guidance go ahead, but leave the rest of us out of it. We've got enough problems taking care of our own citizens.

I don't really give a shit if you want to argue that it is their right or not.

People in our land, accused of a crime... even the crime of being here illegally, should get legal guidance. Even if they can't afford it.

I'm guessing you flunked civics class?

Illegal aliens have no rights. End of story. Door. Ass. Out. If you want to live here, stand in line, wait your turn, do it legally. Do you think the fucking taxpayer should pay for their legal guidance? You need to be buttrammed by that pride of faggots if you do. A wall needs to be built to repel the illegal horde so we won't have to waste time and money refuting the idiocy of liberal nut jobs like yourself. Do you think Mexico or those central American countries would give us the same courtesy? Fuck no. It's straight to jail. Fuck off.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free... Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door"

I like to disagree with what's written in the Statue of Liberty, while presenting myself as a good American, that's what I like to do.

I like to quote my own poasts. That's what I like to do.

I like logical fallacies, that's what I like.

I like hiding behind a guise of superiority and rely on insults rather than arguments when I debate.

So I gave you a detailed argument of which I used third party unbiased data and you come back with "It's a waste of energy to respond to your points, as you already have everything dialed in and figured out"

You responded with a red herring about Switzerland (i.e. a type of logical fallacy).

I can only do so much to help educate you. At some point you need to give it some effort on your own.

That's our education system in a nutshell; divert resources from the achievers with potential to those who can't... or won't.

 

[MikeDamone]

I will clarify that any reservation I have about immigration are squarely on the socialist welfare state. But the data in front of me say that is not yet a concern when looking at the big picture. If that data indicates otherwise, I will reexamine.

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

I will clarify that any reservation I have about immigration are squarely on the socialist welfare state. But the data in front of me say that is not yet a concern when looking at the big picture. If that data indicates otherwise, I will reexamine.

Maybe you should go to Texas and check out the situation for yourself. Get some real data. Economic treatises and theories are fine. But if illegals pouring over the border and nothing being done to stop it is not a concern to you, you're a complete fucking idiot. While you're at it why don't you try to address these issues too:

1.) The diseases they are bringing with him. Why should we have to put up with this shit?

2.) The diverting of resources that could be used to help our own citizens, going to these illegals who have no right to cross into another country without permission. You libertarians are hypocritical. I don't know much about this fringe political cult, but you seem to pride yourselves on following the letter of the law and the constitution to the letter, yet you have no problem with foreigners trampling our laws and taking advantage of our system.

3.) You're against taxes, or you seem to be. Justify the increase in taxes to the ordinary citizen for being forced to provide food, shelter and education to kids that are effectively without parents. Or do you think the parents should be given the right to live here too because their kids committed an illegal act?

Your ludicrous position that it is of no concern echoes Obama, a completely inept moron. People with your viewpoint are sending the message all over the world that America has no borders, come one, come all, bring your grandmothers, your grandfathers, your parents, your 7 kids, your 223 grandkids, and your goats and pigs too. We only enforce our own laws if we agree with them and if they are politically expedient. The maggots in power have other reasons for this. The hispanics vote for them. So the more illegals the better.

Russia must be totally laughing their ass off right now. I'm sure they take us as a joke, and so should the rest of the world. The most powerful nation on Earth can't and won't protect it's own border. Beyond pathetic. The Romans built Hadrian's wall. It's time to start constructing our own.

 

[AZDuck]

el oh el.

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

We do need them, and when they are properly integrated they do help the economy (good links Damone), but I do not like the wild west approach where hundreds of thousands of them just flood us yearly, and we are seemingly not prepared for that.

Disagree. Why do we need them?

 

[MikeDamone]

I will clarify that any reservation I have about immigration are squarely on the socialist welfare state. But the data in front of me say that is not yet a concern when looking at the big picture. If that data indicates otherwise, I will reexamine.

Maybe you should go to Texas and check out the situation for yourself. Get some real data. Economic treatises and theories are fine. But if illegals pouring over the border and nothing being done to stop it is not a concern to you, you're a complete fucking idiot. While you're at it why don't you try to address these issues too:

1.) The diseases they are bringing with him. Why should we have to put up with this shit?

2.) The diverting of resources that could be used to help our own citizens, going to these illegals who have no right to cross into another country without permission.

3.) You're against taxes, or you seem to be. Justify the increase in taxes to the ordinary citizen for being forced to provide food, shelter and education to kids that are effectively without parents. Or do you think the parents should be given the right to live here too because their kids committed an illegal act.

Your ludicrous position that it is of no concern echoes Obama, a completely inept moron. People with your viewpoint are sending the message all over the world that America has no borders, come one, come all, bring your grandmothers, your grandfathers, your parents, your 7 kids, your 223 grandkids, and your goats and pigs too. We only enforce our own laws if we agree with them and if they are politically expedient. The maggots in power have other reasons for this. The hispanics vote for them. So the more illegals the better.

Russia must be totally laughing their ass off right now. I'm sure they take us as a joke, and so should the rest of the world. The most powerful nation on Earth can't and won't protect it's own border. Beyond pathetic.

You continue to ignore the data and facts and repeat the same made up talking points with nothing to back them up. Re-read my post. And if you would like, I would be happy to provided the links to the data. If you have data that contradicts mine I would welcome seeing it.

Of the three points above you would like addressed, points 2 and 3 regarding taxes and costs were addressed in my post from last night. Again, I am wide open to seeing data that refutes what I have presented.

Your point 1 regarding diseases, is also not supported by facts but is the type of rhetoric that is often used by fear mongers to play to an audience that is predisposed to believe it. It's the kind of mass defamation of immigrants that has occurred throughout our history. Irish, Jewish, Catholic, Asian and other groups were publicly vilified, often by the public and politicians, as lazy, degenerate, stupid, ugly, criminal, disloyal etc. We know today very few those negative stereotypes and the conspiracy theories about immigration contain any truth at all.

texasobserver.org/disease-threat-immigrant-children-wildly-overstated/

Here's a couple of debated tips for you.. 1) don't use act so pissed off and angry 2)use facts and data to support your position.

 

[GrundleStiltzkin]

I will clarify that any reservation I have about immigration are squarely on the socialist welfare state. But the data in front of me say that is not yet a concern when looking at the big picture. If that data indicates otherwise, I will reexamine.

Maybe you should go to Texas and check out the situation for yourself. Get some real data. Economic treatises and theories are fine. But if illegals pouring over the border and nothing being done to stop it is not a concern to you, you're a complete fucking idiot. While you're at it why don't you try to address these issues too:

1.) The diseases they are bringing with him. Why should we have to put up with this shit?

2.) The diverting of resources that could be used to help our own citizens, going to these illegals who have no right to cross into another country without permission.

3.) You're against taxes, or you seem to be. Justify the increase in taxes to the ordinary citizen for being forced to provide food, shelter and education to kids that are effectively without parents. Or do you think the parents should be given the right to live here too because their kids committed an illegal act.

Your ludicrous position that it is of no concern echoes Obama, a completely inept moron. People with your viewpoint are sending the message all over the world that America has no borders, come one, come all, bring your grandmothers, your grandfathers, your parents, your 7 kids, your 223 grandkids, and your goats and pigs too. We only enforce our own laws if we agree with them and if they are politically expedient. The maggots in power have other reasons for this. The hispanics vote for them. So the more illegals the better.

Russia must be totally laughing their ass off right now. I'm sure they take us as a joke, and so should the rest of the world. The most powerful nation on Earth can't and won't protect it's own border. Beyond pathetic.

You continue to ignore the data and facts and repeat the same made up talking points with nothing to back them up. Re-read my post. And if you would like, I would be happy to provided the links to the data. If you have data that contradicts mine I would welcome seeing it.

Of the three points above you would like addressed, points 2 and 3 regarding taxes and costs were addressed in my post from last night. Again, I am wide open to seeing data that refutes what I have presented.

Your point 1 regarding diseases, is also not supported by facts but is the type of rhetoric that is often used by fear mongers to play to an audience that is predisposed to believe it. It's the kind of mass defamation of immigrants that has occurred throughout our history. Irish, Jewish, Catholic, Asian and other groups were publicly vilified, often by the public and politicians, as lazy, degenerate, stupid, ugly, criminal, disloyal etc. We know today very few those negative stereotypes and the conspiracy theories about immigration contain any truth at all.

texasobserver.org/disease-threat-immigrant-children-wildly-overstated/

Here's a couple of debated tips for you.. 1) don't use act so pissed off and angry 2)use facts and data to support your position.

Say what you want about conspiracy theories, but if you're going to start bashing on negative stereotypes then I'm out.