ThomasFremont
New Fish
Hawes has skills Upshaw can't touch.
Let's not get carried away here.
Upshaw leads the nation in blocks
- Thread starter Gladstone
- Start date
Hawes has skills Upshaw can't touch.
Let's not get carried away here.
FreeChavez
Active poster
Wait, passing and dribbling and shooting from outside of 5 ft is good for the nba?
I wonder if spado has a new lottery pick after JJ went down in spectacular flames.
HeretoBeatmyChest
New Fish
He's the next Benoit Benjamin.
ThomasFremont
New Fish
That's what I am hearing.
ThomasFremont
New Fish
Fucking THIS.
The one year we were stacked in the front court (Hawes/Brockman) coincides with the worst guards Romar has ever had. Damn shame.
FreeChavez
Active poster
sarcasm?
i hope
I can't believe so many are disagreeing with @Doogles. Hawes was a very good center and he did play with horrible guards. That said, Upshaw is a game changer defensively. Hawes was not and has always been a skilled, finesse big. Completely different games, but Upshaw is more of a difference maker.
Doogles is right about Hawes. He will never be a difference maker in the NBA. He's a role player. Hawes does have skills than Upshaw. He always will. Upshaw will never be the shooter or passer Hawes is. Hawes has more skills than DeAndre Jordan or Roy Hibbert, but who is the better NBA player? Why does Jordan start over him and get the majority of the playing time? If given a choice, both Hibbert and Jordan are easily taken before Hawes by NBA GM's. It's not even close.
Saying Upshaw couldn't get minutes in the NBA right now is crazy. If you watch a lot of NBA, you would know that isn't true. Of course he needs a lot of work and has a long way to go. That's true for most centers in the NBA. Steven Adams starts. Both Plumlee's get solid playing time, the one of Phoenix starting. Ryan Hollins has had a 10 year career and started in the NBA. Jason Collins was on a team last year. There is and always will be a dearth of quality bigs in the NBA.
Unless Upshaw's play this year is a mirage, he's an NBA player right now. On almost any team, he's a back up center with his defense and shot blocking alone. He could start on some of the worst teams in the league.
Doogles is right about Hawes. He will never be a difference maker in the NBA. He's a role player. Hawes does have skills than Upshaw. He always will. Upshaw will never be the shooter or passer Hawes is. Hawes has more skills than DeAndre Jordan or Roy Hibbert, but who is the better NBA player? Why does Jordan start over him and get the majority of the playing time? If given a choice, both Hibbert and Jordan are easily taken before Hawes by NBA GM's. It's not even close.
Saying Upshaw couldn't get minutes in the NBA right now is crazy. If you watch a lot of NBA, you would know that isn't true. Of course he needs a lot of work and has a long way to go. That's true for most centers in the NBA. Steven Adams starts. Both Plumlee's get solid playing time, the one of Phoenix starting. Ryan Hollins has had a 10 year career and started in the NBA. Jason Collins was on a team last year. There is and always will be a dearth of quality bigs in the NBA.
Unless Upshaw's play this year is a mirage, he's an NBA player right now. On almost any team, he's a back up center with his defense and shot blocking alone. He could start on some of the worst teams in the league.
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ThomasFremont
New Fish
Nobody is saying Upshaw can't be an NBA player.
But saying he is better than Hawes is just wrong. He's a better shot blocker. If just being a big tall presence was enough to make it in the NBA, why have there been so many 7' projects that have ended in total failure?
Not to mention all of your examples were stars in college. Upshaw is a nice player with lots of upside. But he's nowhere near as good as Hawes/Collins/Plumlee/Hollins/Jordan/Hibbert/etc. were in college.
Jarvis Varnado was a defensive monster for Miss St. He's not even on an NBA roster.
It's almost as if having actual basketball skills matters...
Varnado is 6'9" 220. Upshaw is 6"11 or 7'0", 250+. Who knows why Varnado isn't in the NBA? It's not always because of talent. One is a true center and the other is an undersized 4 who can't shoot. That doesn't fit what most teams are doing. Most teams are playing stretch 4's.
Hawes is certainly more skilled and a better scorer. Upshaw is a better shot blocker and rebounder. It depends on what you are looking for, but I take Upshaw every time if I'm starting a team. You look at Upshaw's line of 7 points, 7 rebounds, and 3 blocks and it's not overwhelming, but his impact went well beyond that.
We do need to see more of Upshaw, but those guys were not all better players in college. Upshaw is better than some of them (Miles Plumlee, Steven Adams, Ryan Hollins). We need to see more of Upshaw before saying he is better than Hawes, Jordan, Mason Plumee, and Hibbert. You stretch Upshaw's stats out to 25 minutes and they are elite even if his shot blocking doesn't improve at all.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/miles-plumlee-1.htmlhttp://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/steven-adams-1.htmlhttp://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/ucla/ryan-hollinshttp://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/deandre-jordan-1.html
Upshaw's numbers right now are easily better than each of those guys. Saying Ryan Hollins was better in college was incredibly fucking stupid. Hollins wasn't even very good at UCLA except for a game or two in the tournament.
Jordan, Hollins, and Collins don't have any more skills than Upshaw. Jordan is a better athlete at this point, but he has no offensive skill outside of dunking. It's not really a hard evaluation to see that Upshaw is a legitimate NBA player. Every smart NBA analyst talks about how important rim protection is. There is a premium placed on it, and Upshaw is looking like possibly the best shot blocker in the country. As long as Upshaw doesn't start smoking crack, he will at minimum contribute in the NBA. He has immense potential.
FreeChavez
Active poster
Just for reference sake if we're really going to be throwing this shit at the wall. upshaw is 2-3 years older than hawes was when he played here. So If we're going to discuss hawes vs upshaw than we need to project hawes 2 years into what you're trying to compare upshaw to. Otherwise, we need to compare upshaw's mind blowing 5 ppg and 4 rebounds per game while at FRESNO when he was a freshman.
Nobody is saying hawes was a god, but he was very good for a frosh and for walking around half dead during the season(and he still did better than upshaw).
The jury is out on whether upshaw will develop into a player, and by god we all hope he does. But let's start comparing apples to apples if we're going to get into this pissing match.
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So i went back b/c i did want to compare. You all are FS.
Hawes, as a true frosh - 15 ppg, 6.5 rebounds, 2 assists almost 2 blocks and 75% from the line.
My god. If you put him as a junior in the pac12???
Nobody is saying hawes was a god, but he was very good for a frosh and for walking around half dead during the season(and he still did better than upshaw).
The jury is out on whether upshaw will develop into a player, and by god we all hope he does. But let's start comparing apples to apples if we're going to get into this pissing match.
edit -
So i went back b/c i did want to compare. You all are FS.
Hawes, as a true frosh - 15 ppg, 6.5 rebounds, 2 assists almost 2 blocks and 75% from the line.
My god. If you put him as a junior in the pac12???
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Hawes as a frosh is pretty much the same player he is now. He's added some muscle, but what made him special at that age was his advanced skill set. It hasn't gotten that much better. Upshaw has a much higher ceiling for growth. Much much higher, and as long as he doesn't get hooked on the spoon he should get there.
You have never done what you are preaching with Wroten during those debates. Nobody said Hawes wasn't good. Hawes was pretty polished as a freshman though. There is no doubt he would have made moderate improvements during his time at UW, but the limitations Hawes had back then are the same limitations he has today. He's not very strong or quick and he's an average rebounder.
I get your point, but what they did at UW is all there is to judge them on. We can't use Hawes' 2nd season in the NBA against Upshaw at UW. Upshaw's freshman season is irrelevant at this point. Either he's gotten remarkably better since then or he wasn't trying at all at Fresno. I think it's probably abundance.
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FreeChavez
Active poster
As i recall, i called TW lazy on defense, and a selfish player who cant' shoot. I've never said he doesn't have talent. I don't think him being lazy on defense, or being a shitty shooter is anything to argue.
I hope upshaw crushes it for us. I just want to see a player who can be on the court for around 25-30 minutes a game which he is building toward. Where hawes had offense, upshaw has defense that hawes never really had. People weren't scared of hawes. I'm already seeing shots going sideways b/c people are scared at what upshaw will do to them.
That is something that effects a lot more than what hawes brought to UW. So I'll give him that.
ThomasFremont
New Fish
I like to say the thing that makes me wrong is "irrelevant" I like to do that.
Keep cherry picking stats to make your poont.
It's entertaining.
Using Hawes freshman season as the reasoning why he was better than Upshaw is pretty short sighted. Hawes was better than Joakim Noah and Al Horford as a freshman too, but both Florida guys were superior players in college. Both are superior to Hawes in the NBA.
Not every guy develops at the same rate. That is especially true for big guys. Doogles is right. What made Hawes special was an advanced skill set that is rare for a 7 footer. What made it even more rare was the polish he had at 18. He was way more polished and skilled than Upshaw. He always will be. He could have stayed all four years and he wouldn't have been at Upshaw's level as a shot blocker or rebounder.
Hawes has scratched out a nice career and got the full mid level exception from the Clippers. He can stretch the floor, is good for pick and pop, and is a plus passer. He's one of the more skilled centers in the NBA. There's nothing wrong with Spencer Hawes, but elite defensive centers such as Roy Hibbert, Andrew Bogut, DeAndre Jordan, (Upshaw looks to have that potential) get 10+ million per year and max contracts.
Not every guy develops at the same rate. That is especially true for big guys. Doogles is right. What made Hawes special was an advanced skill set that is rare for a 7 footer. What made it even more rare was the polish he had at 18. He was way more polished and skilled than Upshaw. He always will be. He could have stayed all four years and he wouldn't have been at Upshaw's level as a shot blocker or rebounder.
Hawes has scratched out a nice career and got the full mid level exception from the Clippers. He can stretch the floor, is good for pick and pop, and is a plus passer. He's one of the more skilled centers in the NBA. There's nothing wrong with Spencer Hawes, but elite defensive centers such as Roy Hibbert, Andrew Bogut, DeAndre Jordan, (Upshaw looks to have that potential) get 10+ million per year and max contracts.
I guess i just don't get what comparing a stoned Upshaw at fresno as a frosh to a pretty much finished product Hawes as a frosh at UW has to do with NBA prospects. Upshaw in today's game is a far more intriguing and valuable piece than Hawes. Not a knock on Hawes, just a reality.
Also comparing Upshaw at his current age to Hawes at that age is FS because one was sitting out in college and the other was training full time getting payed to play hoop.
If Upshaw improves marginally over the course of the season (better conditioning alone would qualify here), he will be a lottery lock.