OT: Mariners

I think if Felix goes out and dominates the Tigers on the road then he will start to get national recognition like Kershaw has been getting. It is kind of sad to see him getting swept under the rug during such a historic pitching season.
 
DNC,

I hate the whole "cost control" terminology that gets thrown out there ... you ever hear the Yankees talk about "cost control?" The Red Sox? Dodgers? Any team serious about winning?

All "cost control" means to me is that a team is too cheap to put together a winning team unless they are able to put together a team full of guys that are getting underpaid. Fuck that.
 
DNC,

I hate the whole "cost control" terminology that gets thrown out there ... you ever hear the Yankees talk about "cost control?" The Red Sox? Dodgers? Any team serious about winning?

All "cost control" means to me is that a team is too cheap to put together a winning team unless they are able to put together a team full of guys that are getting underpaid. Fuck that.
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Oakland would like a word with you. TequilaFS
 
DNC,

I hate the whole "cost control" terminology that gets thrown out there ... you ever hear the Yankees talk about "cost control?" The Red Sox? Dodgers? Any team serious about winning?

All "cost control" means to me is that a team is too cheap to put together a winning team unless they are able to put together a team full of guys that are getting underpaid. Fuck that.
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If you can't see there is inherent value in players being cost controlled then I can't help you. You may not care how much a given ownership spends, but 80-90% of franchises have payroll budgets. This makes the trade value of cost controlled players considerably higher than the trade value of most players who are being paid what they're worth. Jones was more valuable than Bedard precisely because he had six years of cost control remaining.

This is why a stud like David Price can be traded for an average pitcher like Smyly and a decent but not great prospect like Franklin. Price has nearly finished his surplus value.

You can hate the terminology but to ignore the economics of player acquisition is FS.
 
Best 1-2-3 Pitching punch in all of baseball.
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Yep. Best 1 in baseball. Best 1-2 in baseball. Best 1-2-3 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4-5 in baseball. And best bullpen on top of that.

And the offense has gone from terrible to sort of kind of decent, which should be all it takes to get this team into the playoffs with that elite run prevention. Anything can happen, but they're clearly the best team of those in contention for the second wild card.
 
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Best 1-2-3 Pitching punch in all of baseball.
Click to expand...
Yep. Best 1 in baseball. Best 1-2 in baseball. Best 1-2-3 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4-5 in baseball. And best bullpen on top of that.

And the offense has gone from terrible to sort of kind of decent, which should be all it takes to get this team into the playoffs with that elite run prevention. Anything can happen, but they're clearly the best team of those in contention for the second wild card.
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In all honesty the fact that they pitch at Safeco can't be disregarded... I am not sure how the stats look regarding out 1-5 but I would think the A's have a slight edge over us at the moment there. Detroit I think is better with a healthy Verlander as well.

Still from top to bottom this team does have the best pitching staff in the MLB... which is odd considering the bullpen which seemed to be terrible last year is all but the same except for Rodney.
 
DNC,

I hate the whole "cost control" terminology that gets thrown out there ... you ever hear the Yankees talk about "cost control?" The Red Sox? Dodgers? Any team serious about winning?

All "cost control" means to me is that a team is too cheap to put together a winning team unless they are able to put together a team full of guys that are getting underpaid. Fuck that.
Click to expand...
If you can't see there is inherent value in players being cost controlled then I can't help you. You may not care how much a given ownership spends, but 80-90% of franchises have payroll budgets. This makes the trade value of cost controlled players considerably higher than the trade value of most players who are being paid what they're worth. Jones was more valuable than Bedard precisely because he had six years of cost control remaining.

This is why a stud like David Price can be traded for an average pitcher like Smyly and a decent but not great prospect like Franklin. Price has nearly finished his surplus value.

You can hate the terminology but to ignore the economics of player acquisition is FS.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure you missed my point about "cost control" ...

If anybody thinks that I don't understand the fucking economics of being "cost control," they probably don't belong around here.

I get that teams have budgets.

However, at the same time, you can't sit there and tell me that the Mariners having a payroll of $100M is maximizing their ability to win given their revenue sources.

There are teams like Oakland and Tampa that clearly lack some revenue streams and have to go about things a little differently. They not only are smarter about how they spend their money, but are more willing to trust their success to younger players that are in the "prove it" stages of their careers. I have no problem using the terms "cost control" in those situations ... although I think that there are

Where I have a problem with "cost control" is in bigger markets where the revenue sources do not require "frugal" spending ... when I hear those teams talk about players being under "cost control," I interpret that as meaning "paying below market wages" and not being committed to winning.

 
DNC,

I hate the whole "cost control" terminology that gets thrown out there ... you ever hear the Yankees talk about "cost control?" The Red Sox? Dodgers? Any team serious about winning?

All "cost control" means to me is that a team is too cheap to put together a winning team unless they are able to put together a team full of guys that are getting underpaid. Fuck that.
Click to expand...
If you can't see there is inherent value in players being cost controlled then I can't help you. You may not care how much a given ownership spends, but 80-90% of franchises have payroll budgets. This makes the trade value of cost controlled players considerably higher than the trade value of most players who are being paid what they're worth. Jones was more valuable than Bedard precisely because he had six years of cost control remaining.

This is why a stud like David Price can be traded for an average pitcher like Smyly and a decent but not great prospect like Franklin. Price has nearly finished his surplus value.

You can hate the terminology but to ignore the economics of player acquisition is FS.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure you missed my point about "cost control" ...

If anybody thinks that I don't understand the fucking economics of being "cost control," they probably don't belong around here.

I get that teams have budgets.

However, at the same time, you can't sit there and tell me that the Mariners having a payroll of $100M is maximizing their ability to win given their revenue sources.

There are teams like Oakland and Tampa that clearly lack some revenue streams and have to go about things a little differently. They not only are smarter about how they spend their money, but are more willing to trust their success to younger players that are in the "prove it" stages of their careers. I have no problem using the terms "cost control" in those situations ... although I think that there are

Where I have a problem with "cost control" is in bigger markets where the revenue sources do not require "frugal" spending ... when I hear those teams talk about players being under "cost control," I interpret that as meaning "paying below market wages" and not being committed to winning.
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I'm not arguing that that happens. My point is simply that you can't ignore the value of cost controlled players, and the Mariners dealing Jones for Bedard was incredibly dumb given their relative values.
 
Best 1-2-3 Pitching punch in all of baseball.
Click to expand...
Yep. Best 1 in baseball. Best 1-2 in baseball. Best 1-2-3 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4-5 in baseball. And best bullpen on top of that.

And the offense has gone from terrible to sort of kind of decent, which should be all it takes to get this team into the playoffs with that elite run prevention. Anything can happen, but they're clearly the best team of those in contention for the second wild card.
Click to expand...

In all honesty the fact that they pitch at Safeco can't be disregarded... I am not sure how the stats look regarding out 1-5 but I would think the A's have a slight edge over us at the moment there. Detroit I think is better with a healthy Verlander as well.

Still from top to bottom this team does have the best pitching staff in the MLB... which is odd considering the bullpen which seemed to be terrible last year is all but the same except for Rodney.
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You're probably right about Oakland being better 1-5. The M's rotation has probably been better through the year, but with the Lester upgrade Oakland probably has the edge now.

Obviously I agree Safeco is an advantage, but they're killing it on the road as well, and others including Oakland have pitchers park as well. To do what the M's pitching is doing in the American League is pretty ridiculous, even considering the Safe.
 
Oakland has had three great starters before. They still need to win a playoff series and then pop off. They have been to as many World Series as the M's with their vaunted money ball cost control. Once upon a time Oakland went to and won the Series. More than once
 
Best 1-2-3 Pitching punch in all of baseball.
Click to expand...
Yep. Best 1 in baseball. Best 1-2 in baseball. Best 1-2-3 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4-5 in baseball. And best bullpen on top of that.

And the offense has gone from terrible to sort of kind of decent, which should be all it takes to get this team into the playoffs with that elite run prevention. Anything can happen, but they're clearly the best team of those in contention for the second wild card.
Click to expand...

Disagree. Felix is great, but this is also a career year for him. He's the best pitcher in the AL though. Iwakuma is really good too. Young has been maybe the biggest surprise in baseball. Oakland with Lester, Gray, Kazmir, and Samardjza is the best 1-2-3, and 1-2-3-4. Young isn't as good as any of those guys and Paxton and Walker are too unproven. Iwakuma is good, Gray is a legitimate ace and maybe the best young pitcher in baseball. As Cuntwaffle noted, Detroit's 1-2-3 in a playoff series is scary good, but I don't think Verlander is getting it back this season. I'd rank them Oakland-Seattle-Detroit. Shoutout to dhdawg for calling it on the rotation in April. I didn't think they were top 5, but they are.

The offense is still pretty bad. Getting Jackson was a very good move though. The CF's before him were a disaster and now we have an above average to good player out there. If the M's do make the playoffs, it will be the first time I watched them in a real game since 2009. It might be asking a lot for Felix and the starters to keep throwing the way they are. You know they offense will have a couple more droughts where they score 5 runs in 4 games.
 
Oakland is better 1-5 for sure. Kazmir, gray Lester samarzdija and hammel are much better than what the mariners have
 
Best 1-2-3 Pitching punch in all of baseball.
Click to expand...
Yep. Best 1 in baseball. Best 1-2 in baseball. Best 1-2-3 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4 in baseball. Best healthy 1-2-3-4-5 in baseball. And best bullpen on top of that.

And the offense has gone from terrible to sort of kind of decent, which should be all it takes to get this team into the playoffs with that elite run prevention. Anything can happen, but they're clearly the best team of those in contention for the second wild card.
Click to expand...

Disagree. Felix is great, but this is also a career year for him. He's the best pitcher in the AL though. Iwakuma is really good too. Young has been maybe the biggest surprise in baseball. Oakland with Lester, Gray, Kazmir, and Samardjza is the best 1-2-3, and 1-2-3-4. Young isn't as good as any of those guys and Paxton and Walker are too unproven. Iwakuma is good, Gray is a legitimate ace and maybe the best young pitcher in baseball. As Cuntwaffle noted, Detroit's 1-2-3 in a playoff series is scary good, but I don't think Verlander is getting it back this season. I'd rank them Oakland-Seattle-Detroit. Shoutout to dhdawg for calling it on the rotation in April. I didn't think they were top 5, but they are.

The offense is still pretty bad. Getting Jackson was a very good move though. The CF's before him were a disaster and now we have an above average to good player out there. If the M's do make the playoffs, it will be the first time I watched them in a real game since 2009. It might be asking a lot for Felix and the starters to keep throwing the way they are. You know they offense will have a couple more droughts where they score 5 runs in 4 games.
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You're right about Oakland's rotation. I was stupidly looking at full year success, which obviously shortchanges the A's since they've upgraded their rotation significantly in season. But I'd rank the pitchers in their rotations like this:

Felix
Lester
Gray/Iwakuma - seriously these guys are basically even whether you prefer ERA or FIP or xFIP or WAR. No idea why you like Gray so much more than Iwakuma, they're a total coin flip.
Samardjza - right there with Gray and Iwakuma numbers wise, but I ding him a bit for spending half his season in the NL.
Kazmir - might be underrating him since he's been so up and down through his career.
Young - heck of a season for him, still not sure he can sustain this level.
Paxton - way too early to get excited, but Paxton's small sample size numbers are better than every pitcher on this elite list other than Felix. If he can stay healthy he should be very good. Huge if. But he's probably already better than Young at least, he just has to stay healthy long enough to prove it.

So yeah, Seattle with the best 1-2, but Oakland with the best 1-2-3 and best 1-2-3-4. But before Lester I'd have given those to the M's.

Definitely agree with your analysis on Jackson.
 
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while the offense will have low points for sure. It won't be like the first half. Jackson is a legitimate leadoff hitter, and morales is looking a lot better than he did a week ago.
We'll see I'm not totally sold on the team, I see them as an 85 win team give or take a game or 2. We'll see if that gets them into the postseason.
If Saunders can stay healthy and morales can be himself they will probably get that WC. Both are big ifs however
 
Detroit's 1-2-3-4 is up there as well.
Scherzer Price Porcello and a healthy Sanchez (hurt currently) is scary for whoever has to face them come october.
I may have to eat my words, but I just don't think detroit can win in the postseason with that bullpen, especially against an oakland who'll make the starters work
 
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