Fetters baseball knowledge even worse than his football knowledge.

[dhdawg]

Generally I like Churchill ... but I do feel at times that he goes square peg and square hole with his viewpoints.

No question that Saunders was a useful player. I would have liked to have kept him as a 4th OF. I don't think that he was going to have the massive breakout (at least not in Seattle) that everybody thinks that is in his corner thinks he's capable of. And if he does have that breakout in Toronto, to me it's not as easy as saying "see, told you so" if that happens. Professionally, it was probably good for him to leave Seattle and get a fresh start - so good for him on that.

The areas that I get really frustrated with Churchill on things is when it comes to putting a plan together and then being prepared to do A if you know you can pull off B. For example, take a player like Justin Upton. If I knew that I could make a deal with him and get him to sign a contract extension before free agency, I would be prepared to give up more to get that deal done than I would if I was taking the player on for a year and then was going to lose the player.

Or, what is probably more appropriate in the case of Happ, this is a deal that will need to be considered in the context of what will probably be another deal that takes place to add one more hitter that will come at the expense of either Walker or Paxton. It's very possible that moving Saunders in that deal wasn't realistic, but this was a move that was required in the context of the bigger picture.

you don't know if Upton will sign a contract extension though. That is a completely seperate issue from the trade

 

[dhdawg]

I've heard that the money is being equalized by Toronto ... so that's not a huge issue in this deal.

I think you have to assume that the Mariners are planning on getting another OFer.

There's also the thought of what to do with DJ Peterson when he's ready ... LoMo can play some of the OF.

And while Saunders is clearly better than Jones, Jones isn't terrible as a 4th OF given that he's the biggest speed threat on a roster that right now is moving a bit away from speed.

Jones is pretty bad, he can steal you a base but other than that he's of no value (offensively or defensively)
With Cruz already occupying the DH slot I'd rather see them sacrifice a bit of offense to get someone who projects well defensively. Than spend on someone like cabrera who can hit but is likely going to be an albatross in RF down the road if he isn't already.
Someone like heyward would have been perfect, but he's already been dealt.
I think the guy they do get is completely off the radar ATM

 

[Tequilla]

Generally I like Churchill ... but I do feel at times that he goes square peg and square hole with his viewpoints.

No question that Saunders was a useful player. I would have liked to have kept him as a 4th OF. I don't think that he was going to have the massive breakout (at least not in Seattle) that everybody thinks that is in his corner thinks he's capable of. And if he does have that breakout in Toronto, to me it's not as easy as saying "see, told you so" if that happens. Professionally, it was probably good for him to leave Seattle and get a fresh start - so good for him on that.

The areas that I get really frustrated with Churchill on things is when it comes to putting a plan together and then being prepared to do A if you know you can pull off B. For example, take a player like Justin Upton. If I knew that I could make a deal with him and get him to sign a contract extension before free agency, I would be prepared to give up more to get that deal done than I would if I was taking the player on for a year and then was going to lose the player.

Or, what is probably more appropriate in the case of Happ, this is a deal that will need to be considered in the context of what will probably be another deal that takes place to add one more hitter that will come at the expense of either Walker or Paxton. It's very possible that moving Saunders in that deal wasn't realistic, but this was a move that was required in the context of the bigger picture.

you don't know if Upton will sign a contract extension though. That is a completely seperate issue from the trade

Entirely not true.

As the club making the deal, you have the ability to request a negotiating window prior to agreeing to a trade. That doesn't mean that the request will be honored, or a contract extension agreed upon. The Red Sox made such a request when contemplating the Adrian Gonzalez trade.

You absolutely have the right as the club making a deal to pursue a contract with a player and have that decision influence whether you're willing to make a deal or not. That's basic negotiating.

 

[Tequilla]

I've heard that the money is being equalized by Toronto ... so that's not a huge issue in this deal.

I think you have to assume that the Mariners are planning on getting another OFer.

There's also the thought of what to do with DJ Peterson when he's ready ... LoMo can play some of the OF.

And while Saunders is clearly better than Jones, Jones isn't terrible as a 4th OF given that he's the biggest speed threat on a roster that right now is moving a bit away from speed.

Jones is pretty bad, he can steal you a base but other than that he's of no value (offensively or defensively)
With Cruz already occupying the DH slot I'd rather see them sacrifice a bit of offense to get someone who projects well defensively. Than spend on someone like cabrera who can hit but is likely going to be an albatross in RF down the road if he isn't already.
Someone like heyward would have been perfect, but he's already been dealt.
I think the guy they do get is completely off the radar ATM

I feel that what the lineup is missing is a 4 or 6 right handed hitter to slot between either Cano/Seager or Seager/Morrison.

While Melky would be a definite upgrade at the top of the order, the implication of that would be that Jackson drops to 6th in the order. My worry about dropping Jackson to this spot would be that it would be too easy for teams to pitch around Seager at that point. If you have Cruz or a better hitter than Jackson at 6, then I feel like your lineup is lengthened properly.

 

[dhdawg]

absolutely. however that doesn't mean you should sacrifice defense in order to do that. The guy you acquire can still hit a legitimate 6th AND play at least league average defense, just means you pay a bit more. And if jack z doesn't want to pay up, tough, he chose to deal saunders

 

[CuntWaffle]

I've heard that the money is being equalized by Toronto ... so that's not a huge issue in this deal.

I think you have to assume that the Mariners are planning on getting another OFer.

There's also the thought of what to do with DJ Peterson when he's ready ... LoMo can play some of the OF.

And while Saunders is clearly better than Jones, Jones isn't terrible as a 4th OF given that he's the biggest speed threat on a roster that right now is moving a bit away from speed.

Jones is pretty bad, he can steal you a base but other than that he's of no value (offensively or defensively)
With Cruz already occupying the DH slot I'd rather see them sacrifice a bit of offense to get someone who projects well defensively. Than spend on someone like cabrera who can hit but is likely going to be an albatross in RF down the road if he isn't already.
Someone like heyward would have been perfect, but he's already been dealt.
I think the guy they do get is completely off the radar ATM

Why the hell would the Mariners need defense? They have historically had the most dreck offense for awhile. They NEED more offense, defense is the leads of your worries in the outfield in the MLB. There are so many players in the minors that could play amazing defense, the few that make it up do so because they can HIT.

The Mariners are going to get another outfielder that is clearly obvious. If they don't id agree this trade is not in their favor, but it is clearly obvious they are playing to win this year.

The relationship with Saunders was shitty and his role on the team with an added OF would diminish more. They needed depth in the rotation. Do you really want Erasimo Ramierez getting starts if Kuma or someone gets hurt? Fuck no! This also will allow Walker to develop a little better by starting the year in the Bullpen exactly like how Chris Sale started his career.

This move makes complete sense because the Mariners will get a better outfielder. Fuck defense, if I want defense I'll go watch the Seahawks. In baseball you need to hit the ball and I'll take A player like Melkys bat over Saunders defense.

 

[dnc]

I've heard that the money is being equalized by Toronto ... so that's not a huge issue in this deal.

I think you have to assume that the Mariners are planning on getting another OFer.

There's also the thought of what to do with DJ Peterson when he's ready ... LoMo can play some of the OF.

And while Saunders is clearly better than Jones, Jones isn't terrible as a 4th OF given that he's the biggest speed threat on a roster that right now is moving a bit away from speed.

Jones is pretty bad, he can steal you a base but other than that he's of no value (offensively or defensively)
With Cruz already occupying the DH slot I'd rather see them sacrifice a bit of offense to get someone who projects well defensively. Than spend on someone like cabrera who can hit but is likely going to be an albatross in RF down the road if he isn't already.
Someone like heyward would have been perfect, but he's already been dealt.
I think the guy they do get is completely off the radar ATM

Why the hell would the Mariners need defense? They have historically had the most dreck offense for awhile. They NEED more offense, defense is the leads of your worries in the outfield in the MLB. There are so many players in the minors that could play amazing defense, the few that make it up do so because they can HIT.

The Mariners are going to get another outfielder that is clearly obvious. If they don't id agree this trade is not in their favor, but it is clearly obvious they are playing to win this year.

The relationship with Saunders was shitty and his role on the team with an added OF would diminish more. They needed depth in the rotation. Do you really want Erasimo Ramierez getting starts if Kuma or someone gets hurt? Fuck no! This also will allow Walker to develop a little better by starting the year in the Bullpen exactly like how Chris Sale started his career.

This move makes complete sense because the Mariners will get a better outfielder. Fuck defense, if I want defense I'll go watch the Seahawks. In baseball you need to hit the ball and I'll take A player like Melkys bat over Saunders defense.

If they sign Melky it's fine. If they deal Walker (which is what i expect), it's not fine.

 

[dhdawg]

I've heard that the money is being equalized by Toronto ... so that's not a huge issue in this deal.

I think you have to assume that the Mariners are planning on getting another OFer.

There's also the thought of what to do with DJ Peterson when he's ready ... LoMo can play some of the OF.

And while Saunders is clearly better than Jones, Jones isn't terrible as a 4th OF given that he's the biggest speed threat on a roster that right now is moving a bit away from speed.

Jones is pretty bad, he can steal you a base but other than that he's of no value (offensively or defensively)
With Cruz already occupying the DH slot I'd rather see them sacrifice a bit of offense to get someone who projects well defensively. Than spend on someone like cabrera who can hit but is likely going to be an albatross in RF down the road if he isn't already.
Someone like heyward would have been perfect, but he's already been dealt.
I think the guy they do get is completely off the radar ATM

Why the hell would the Mariners need defense? They have historically had the most dreck offense for awhile. They NEED more offense, defense is the leads of your worries in the outfield in the MLB. There are so many players in the minors that could play amazing defense, the few that make it up do so because they can HIT.

The Mariners are going to get another outfielder that is clearly obvious. If they don't id agree this trade is not in their favor, but it is clearly obvious they are playing to win this year.

The relationship with Saunders was shitty and his role on the team with an added OF would diminish more. They needed depth in the rotation. Do you really want Erasimo Ramierez getting starts if Kuma or someone gets hurt? Fuck no! This also will allow Walker to develop a little better by starting the year in the Bullpen exactly like how Chris Sale started his career.

This move makes complete sense because the Mariners will get a better outfielder. Fuck defense, if I want defense I'll go watch the Seahawks. In baseball you need to hit the ball and I'll take A player like Melkys bat over Saunders defense.

No one is saying tha player shouldn't be good offensively. But I'd really rather not sign defensive albatross's like Cabrera to a 4/5 year deal. Sacrificing defense for offense didn't work in 2012

 

[IrishDawg22]

This a great trade. Even if Happ doesn't pitch an inning, the fact that Saunders and Choak are no longer in the lineup automatically makes this team better.

 

[Tequilla]

As baseball continues drifting in a direction of a greater number of strikeouts, the importance of defense on the field will decrease. Defense is tremendously important if the ball is routinely getting put in play. If pitching is creating outs without the ball being put in play, the importance of defense goes way down.

Last year, the Mariners averaged over 8 K's per 9 innings. That only leaves 19 outs per game for the team to get with the defense. One would expect this to go up with some of the young pitchers who are better K options than the guys that they replaced, probably an upgrade over Young, and no more fill ins like Erasimo.

This chart/table is very interesting: http://www.sportingcharts.com/mlb/s...alls-to-fly-balls-allowed-ratio-leaders/2014/

Felix is a well known ground ball pitcher. The numbers state that he's going to get 2.5 grounders for every fly ball (and what percentage of those fly balls are routine cans of corn compared to difficult defensive plays for an OFer?). Likewise, Kuma rates as a ground ball pitcher getting close to 2 grounders for every 1 fly ball.

A name that keeps getting tossed around is Brandon McCarthy - and he's another extreme ground ball pitcher. Another guy towards the top of that list is Francisco Liriano as well.

You have GG caliber players in Cano and Seager defensively. Both Taylor and Miller are reasonable defenders at SS. LoMo's probably below average as an OFer but not that far away from average as a 1B. In the OF, you have decent options in Ackley and Jackson as it is. RF is by far the one place in the Safeco OF where you can hide a so-so defender.

Bottom line to me is that you can probably get away with having 1 or 2 so-so defenders in your lineup when you consider the makeup of your staff being heavily slanted towards K's (almost 1 per inning) and heavy ground ball pitchers.

 

[RoadDawg55]

It was a shitty trade. I hope the M's keep Walker and Paxton. I would rather take chances that those two could be top of the line starters than acquire a 5 like Happ. Felix, Iwakuma, Elias, Walker, and Paxton is a good rotation. Sign another journeyman like they did Young for some depth. McClendon also talked about Wilhelmson maybe becoming a starter. Lots of shitty pitchers can be average pitching half their games at Safeco. There is no need to acquire one for $6.7 million. Even if the Blue Jays are evening the salaries, it's stupid.

Saunders is a decent player and the Mariners need every bat they can get. Having Logan Morrison be your everyday 1B is a recipe for disaster. I liked having Saunders around because Ackley may revert back to sucking and Jackson did terrible once the Mariners acquired him. There are too many guys in the lineup who are capable of having terrible seasons.

 

[Tequilla]

That's why you can't look at a single deal without seeing the big picture.

The Mariners were 87-75 last year. Missed the playoffs by a single game.

They scored 2 runs or less in 60 games ... they went 8-52 in those games.

In games they scored 3 or more runs in ... they went 79-23.

You don't need a degree in math to realize that their biggest problem last year was their inability to score runs on a consistent basis. 2 runs or less in 60 games is ridiculous. I get that it's still going to happen 30-40 times per year. But get to 2 runs in those games ... 39 of the 60 games they didn't even do that.

Happ wasn't brought in to be a main part of this rotation. He was brought in to build depth in the rotation to be able to withstand an injury, future trade, lack of performance, etc.

Saunders was a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't need him. Happ will be a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't have others that can do a comparable job.

Those that follow the Mariners can be very myopic at times.

 

[dnc]

That's why you can't look at a single deal without seeing the big picture.

The Mariners were 87-75 last year. Missed the playoffs by a single game.

They scored 2 runs or less in 60 games ... they went 8-52 in those games.

In games they scored 3 or more runs in ... they went 79-23.

You don't need a degree in math to realize that their biggest problem last year was their inability to score runs on a consistent basis. 2 runs or less in 60 games is ridiculous. I get that it's still going to happen 30-40 times per year. But get to 2 runs in those games ... 39 of the 60 games they didn't even do that.

Happ wasn't brought in to be a main part of this rotation. He was brought in to build depth in the rotation to be able to withstand an injury, future trade, lack of performance, etc.

Saunders was a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't need him. Happ will be a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't have others that can do a comparable job.

Those that follow the Mariners can be very myopic at times.

If they would have played Saunders down the stretch they would have had that extra win they needed.

hth

 

[Tequilla]

That's why you can't look at a single deal without seeing the big picture.

The Mariners were 87-75 last year. Missed the playoffs by a single game.

They scored 2 runs or less in 60 games ... they went 8-52 in those games.

In games they scored 3 or more runs in ... they went 79-23.

You don't need a degree in math to realize that their biggest problem last year was their inability to score runs on a consistent basis. 2 runs or less in 60 games is ridiculous. I get that it's still going to happen 30-40 times per year. But get to 2 runs in those games ... 39 of the 60 games they didn't even do that.

Happ wasn't brought in to be a main part of this rotation. He was brought in to build depth in the rotation to be able to withstand an injury, future trade, lack of performance, etc.

Saunders was a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't need him. Happ will be a luxury on this team going forward in an area where we really don't have others that can do a comparable job.

Those that follow the Mariners can be very myopic at times.

If they would have played Saunders down the stretch they would have had that extra win they needed.

hth

That's fucking BS and comes straight out of the Churchill talking points on Saunders ... they put themselves in a position to be where they needed to be and lost a 3 game series to Oakland and then had a run of games in late September where the pitching fell apart over a series of a 4-5 games. I absolutely laugh at those that say that "all 162 games are equal" blah blah blah stuff. Yes, they count the same in the standings. No, they aren't managed or played in the same manner. Games in September absolutely carry more weight than games in May. Those that don't get that are those that probably have never played sports. You spend your season putting yourself in a position to compete for championships. Your season then is judged on your ability to win when it matters most.

You don't build a team to be "just good enough" to make the playoffs. Doing that sets you up for unexpected downturns and increases your risk of failure.

For those criticizing this deal, the major miss is trying to figure our where would Saunders play on this team next year? There will be another move for an OF. They have Cruz to DH. They probably aren't playing him over Jackson or Ackley. So where does he play?

Moreover, while you need to build the best 25 (and really 30-35) man roster for the regular season, postseason play comes down to your top 17 to 18 players, particularly in the AL. It's your starting 9, your 3-4 starting pitchers, and your top 3-5 relief pitchers. The bench guys MAY get a spot here and there. But the 5th OF or 6th SP probably isn't making a dent in October anyway. At that point, you're better off figuring out how a 5th OF or 6th SP better helps you April-September.

 

[CuntWaffle]

Have you guys actually watched Walker pitch? He has talent but he is so inconsistent right now. They guy fucking walks almost as many batters as he will strike out. Paxton is superior in every way and if you can get Upton or Kemp for Walker you fucking doing it. I like him out of the bullpen but holy Christ is he a lot more sizzle than steak right now.

As far as LoMo goes did you guys actually watch the Mariners last season? LoMO started to bang the ball around after and extremely slow start. He was one of the more clutch hitters down the stretch. It is far from a disaster having him at 1B and if he ends up shitting the bed early then DJ Peterson might get a crack to see what he could do.

Jackson had a bad half season for the Mariners but his overall body of work is decent and if there is a position in the OF you want defense it is CF and Jackson is onenis the best.

The money in Happs deal is so moot because of no salary it means jack shit in the grand scheme of things as it isn't long term and only this year. It won't stop the Mariners from making their next big deal with someone.

Seriously do any of you actually watch the Mariners or even baseball regularly?

 

[Tequilla]

If I was betting on a player going forward, I'd bet on LoMo before I'd bet on Saunders - particularly for 2015.

Moreover, if you look at the path of the Mariners tops prospects:

Alex Jackson will be an OF and probably will be pushing for a spot in the Bigs in 2017.

Peterson will be ready by no later than the beginning of 2016 ... he's a corner guy all the way.

Gabby Guerrero is an OF that could be pushing for a spot in the 2016-2017 time period. Same for Austin Wilson.

Patrick Kivelhan is in the same boat as Peterson - but may have the ability to also play some OF. Another 2016 guy.

Ketel Marte is probably a 2016 guy as well - might even have a higher ceiling than both Miller or Taylor. If nothing else, it makes it more likely that one of those two are expendable.

Point being that when you look through what the organizational depth is of the Mariners, there's a lot of OF prospects on the way. Saunders is a pure luxury. The organization lacks in SP's right now as they've focused on building up the bats. It's why the trade made some sense - regardless of whether you want to argue whether they could have got better than Happ. The point is that the deal itself made sense.

The other thing that makes a lot of sense when you look at the organizational depth is that it makes it that much more reasonable for the Mariners to have some high end contracts on their roster as they SHOULD be able to plug/play a lot of young players into the lineup making the league minimum.

Finally, by building the lineup properly today, you're bringing the next generation up to the majors in a position where not a lot is being asked of them. It allows them to settle in and not worry so much about the 0-4 with 3 K's that they'll have as a rookie because they are hitting 8th or 9th in the order. It sounds crazy to people that don't remember, but there was a time when a young Manny Ramirez used to hit 8th for the Indians. Of course, Manny could hit a ton and all of that and I'm sure he would have been successful regardless. But at the same time, when you can plug the young kids into your lineup and allow them to grow without pressure, you're only helping them to be successful, which in turn makes you a better club.

 

[ThomasFremont]

It was a shitty trade. I hope the M's keep Walker and Paxton. I would rather take chances that those two could be top of the line starters than acquire a 5 like Happ. Felix, Iwakuma, Elias, Walker, and Paxton is a good rotation. Sign another journeyman like they did Young for some depth. McClendon also talked about Wilhelmson maybe becoming a starter. Lots of shitty pitchers can be average pitching half their games at Safeco. There is no need to acquire one for $6.7 million. Even if the Blue Jays are evening the salaries, it's stupid.

Saunders is a decent player and the Mariners need every bat they can get. Having Logan Morrison be your everyday 1B is a recipe for disaster. I liked having Saunders around because Ackley may revert back to sucking and Jackson did terrible once the Mariners acquired him. There are too many guys in the lineup who are capable of having terrible seasons.

2 of those guys have never pitched a full MLB season. And Walker is far from a sure thing.

Happ provides depth to a rotation that is over worked on the front end and unproven on the back end.

Additionally, pitchers are more injury prone and require more rest than outfielders.

A decent SP is more valuable than a 4th OF who can be a late game defensive sub.

 

[Tequilla]

It was a shitty trade. I hope the M's keep Walker and Paxton. I would rather take chances that those two could be top of the line starters than acquire a 5 like Happ. Felix, Iwakuma, Elias, Walker, and Paxton is a good rotation. Sign another journeyman like they did Young for some depth. McClendon also talked about Wilhelmson maybe becoming a starter. Lots of shitty pitchers can be average pitching half their games at Safeco. There is no need to acquire one for $6.7 million. Even if the Blue Jays are evening the salaries, it's stupid.

Saunders is a decent player and the Mariners need every bat they can get. Having Logan Morrison be your everyday 1B is a recipe for disaster. I liked having Saunders around because Ackley may revert back to sucking and Jackson did terrible once the Mariners acquired him. There are too many guys in the lineup who are capable of having terrible seasons.

2 of those guys have never pitched a full MLB season. And Walker is far from a sure thing.

Happ provides depth to a rotation that is over worked on the front end and unproven on the back end.

Additionally, pitchers are more injury prone and require more rest than outfielders.

A decent SP is more valuable than a 4th OF who can be a late game defensive sub.

Elias really hasn't pitched a full season either (although more than Paxton/Walker). There were different intervals last year where he was shut down for 7-10 days at a time because of a tired arm.

Even in the best of worlds, you probably are going to need a "6th starter) to make 10-15 starts for you on the season.

 

[dnc]

If I was betting on a player going forward, I'd bet on LoMo before I'd bet on Saunders - particularly for 2015.

Moreover, if you look at the path of the Mariners tops prospects:

Alex Jackson will be an OF and probably will be pushing for a spot in the Bigs in 2017.

Peterson will be ready by no later than the beginning of 2016 ... he's a corner guy all the way.

Gabby Guerrero is an OF that could be pushing for a spot in the 2016-2017 time period. Same for Austin Wilson.

Patrick Kivelhan is in the same boat as Peterson - but may have the ability to also play some OF. Another 2016 guy.

Ketel Marte is probably a 2016 guy as well - might even have a higher ceiling than both Miller or Taylor. If nothing else, it makes it more likely that one of those two are expendable.

Point being that when you look through what the organizational depth is of the Mariners, there's a lot of OF prospects on the way. Saunders is a pure luxury. The organization lacks in SP's right now as they've focused on building up the bats. It's why the trade made some sense - regardless of whether you want to argue whether they could have got better than Happ. The point is that the deal itself made sense.

The other thing that makes a lot of sense when you look at the organizational depth is that it makes it that much more reasonable for the Mariners to have some high end contracts on their roster as they SHOULD be able to plug/play a lot of young players into the lineup making the league minimum.

Finally, by building the lineup properly today, you're bringing the next generation up to the majors in a position where not a lot is being asked of them. It allows them to settle in and not worry so much about the 0-4 with 3 K's that they'll have as a rookie because they are hitting 8th or 9th in the order. It sounds crazy to people that don't remember, but there was a time when a young Manny Ramirez used to hit 8th for the Indians. Of course, Manny could hit a ton and all of that and I'm sure he would have been successful regardless. But at the same time, when you can plug the young kids into your lineup and allow them to grow without pressure, you're only helping them to be successful, which in turn makes you a better club.

PLSS has been banned and you're writing novels about the Mooriners.

Fuck man get your priorities straight at a time like this.

 

[dhdawg]

It was a shitty trade. I hope the M's keep Walker and Paxton. I would rather take chances that those two could be top of the line starters than acquire a 5 like Happ. Felix, Iwakuma, Elias, Walker, and Paxton is a good rotation. Sign another journeyman like they did Young for some depth. McClendon also talked about Wilhelmson maybe becoming a starter. Lots of shitty pitchers can be average pitching half their games at Safeco. There is no need to acquire one for $6.7 million. Even if the Blue Jays are evening the salaries, it's stupid.

Saunders is a decent player and the Mariners need every bat they can get. Having Logan Morrison be your everyday 1B is a recipe for disaster. I liked having Saunders around because Ackley may revert back to sucking and Jackson did terrible once the Mariners acquired him. There are too many guys in the lineup who are capable of having terrible seasons.

Saunders is a decent player. Exactly! Why is this so hard for everyone else to understand?