Cavs look great

[Tequilla]

He is also one of the smartest players ever but don't let facts or his peers get in the way of your natural talent racist crap

Haha ... that's funny.

You'd have a hard time convincing me that LBJ is better than Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, and Bird. Wilt's in a category that is really all his own. And it's almost impossible to say that LBJ is above Duncan or Kobe.

So you're really looking at slotting LBJ somewhere in the Jerry West, Big O, Shaq, Hakeem (who I think is a bit underrated), and Moses range.

 

[Tequilla]

They have been good on defense every year. The criticism is their offense (especially halfcourt) sucks considering they have Durant and Westbrook.

The reason that their halfcourt offense sucks is because the ball sticks in the hands of Durant and Westbrook.

Now, you can put some blame on Scott Brooks for that because he doesn't do a good job of demanding ball movement and holding KD and Westbrook accountable for when they just start jacking up shots (more of a Westbrook issue IMO).

But if you can't see that Durant and in particular Westbrook play a lot of 1 on 1 ball, then I don't know what to tell you. Westbrook is averaging 31 minutes per game so far on the season and he's shooting the ball on average 20 times per game.

Durant's the best pure scorer in the game, but until he cleans up some major weaknesses in his offensive game, he'll never reach the high levels that he COULD reach as being the most influential offensive player in the game.

I think Durant is a better Karl Malone, Barkley, etc. Part of the reason those guys didn't win titles was bad timing and luck, but they were also lacking something.

They don't win when Westbrook is out or plays shitty. The narrative has become stupid. Most analysts even seem to realize that. Memphis made quick work out of the Thunder when Westbrook got hurt in the playoffs. He's a legitimate star. Who is the last star pure PG to win anything? The game has changed.

Agree that Durant is better than Malone. I'd like to see Durant get to Barkley's level as a passer.

I'm not saying that Westbrook isn't a good player.

My criticism of KD and Westbrook is that the ball movement isn't there. Forget about PGs or Bigs in today's game ... ball movement is the most important attribute IMO of good teams as bigs don't dominate the game anymore. Last year, the Spurs made the Heat dizzy with their ball movement. The Heat teams that won titles had strong ball movement. The Mavs had strong ball movement. That's the game today.

 

[RaceBannon]

Lebron has won and lost with the worst finals teams of all time and it isn't close. And he isn't done

Bullshit. There isn't much to talk shit about LeBron about, but his Heat teams for both his title wins were good. Really good. Same for the one that lost to the Mavs. You can't tell me he didn't deserve the blame for losing that one. The only shitty team he had was Cleveland and maybe last year.

Which teams were worse?

 

[RoadDawg55]

They have been good on defense every year. The criticism is their offense (especially halfcourt) sucks considering they have Durant and Westbrook.

The reason that their halfcourt offense sucks is because the ball sticks in the hands of Durant and Westbrook.

Now, you can put some blame on Scott Brooks for that because he doesn't do a good job of demanding ball movement and holding KD and Westbrook accountable for when they just start jacking up shots (more of a Westbrook issue IMO).

But if you can't see that Durant and in particular Westbrook play a lot of 1 on 1 ball, then I don't know what to tell you. Westbrook is averaging 31 minutes per game so far on the season and he's shooting the ball on average 20 times per game.

Durant's the best pure scorer in the game, but until he cleans up some major weaknesses in his offensive game, he'll never reach the high levels that he COULD reach as being the most influential offensive player in the game.

I think Durant is a better Karl Malone, Barkley, etc. Part of the reason those guys didn't win titles was bad timing and luck, but they were also lacking something.

They don't win when Westbrook is out or plays shitty. The narrative has become stupid. Most analysts even seem to realize that. Memphis made quick work out of the Thunder when Westbrook got hurt in the playoffs. He's a legitimate star. Who is the last star pure PG to win anything? The game has changed.

Agree that Durant is better than Malone. I'd like to see Durant get to Barkley's level as a passer.

I'm not saying that Westbrook isn't a good player.

My criticism of KD and Westbrook is that the ball movement isn't there. Forget about PGs or Bigs in today's game ... ball movement is the most important attribute IMO of good teams as bigs don't dominate the game anymore. Last year, the Spurs made the Heat dizzy with their ball movement. The Heat teams that won titles had strong ball movement. The Mavs had strong ball movement. That's the game today.

I can agree with that. With Lopez and Waiters/Morrow, there will be no excuse for the ball to stick.

 

[Tequilla]

They have been good on defense every year. The criticism is their offense (especially halfcourt) sucks considering they have Durant and Westbrook.

The reason that their halfcourt offense sucks is because the ball sticks in the hands of Durant and Westbrook.

Now, you can put some blame on Scott Brooks for that because he doesn't do a good job of demanding ball movement and holding KD and Westbrook accountable for when they just start jacking up shots (more of a Westbrook issue IMO).

But if you can't see that Durant and in particular Westbrook play a lot of 1 on 1 ball, then I don't know what to tell you. Westbrook is averaging 31 minutes per game so far on the season and he's shooting the ball on average 20 times per game.

Durant's the best pure scorer in the game, but until he cleans up some major weaknesses in his offensive game, he'll never reach the high levels that he COULD reach as being the most influential offensive player in the game.

I think Durant is a better Karl Malone, Barkley, etc. Part of the reason those guys didn't win titles was bad timing and luck, but they were also lacking something.

They don't win when Westbrook is out or plays shitty. The narrative has become stupid. Most analysts even seem to realize that. Memphis made quick work out of the Thunder when Westbrook got hurt in the playoffs. He's a legitimate star. Who is the last star pure PG to win anything? The game has changed.

Agree that Durant is better than Malone. I'd like to see Durant get to Barkley's level as a passer.

I'm not saying that Westbrook isn't a good player.

My criticism of KD and Westbrook is that the ball movement isn't there. Forget about PGs or Bigs in today's game ... ball movement is the most important attribute IMO of good teams as bigs don't dominate the game anymore. Last year, the Spurs made the Heat dizzy with their ball movement. The Heat teams that won titles had strong ball movement. The Mavs had strong ball movement. That's the game today.

I can agree with that. With Lopez and Waiters/Morrow, there will be no excuse for the ball to stick.

But the ball will stick ... both you and I know that.

 

[Doogles]

Have you seen LBJ's fake leadership quality? Something is off when he gives his little entitled speeches to his teams. I really don't think he has the it factor at all. He's been blessed by Ala with otherworld talent, but his schtick lacks actual punch and I think it's pretty obvious.

 

[RoadDawg55]

Lebron has won and lost with the worst finals teams of all time and it isn't close. And he isn't done

Bullshit. There isn't much to talk shit about LeBron about, but his Heat teams for both his title wins were good. Really good. Same for the one that lost to the Mavs. You can't tell me he didn't deserve the blame for losing that one. The only shitty team he had was Cleveland and maybe last year.

Which teams were worse?

The 98 Knicks.The Jason Kidd Nets teams. Allen Iverson and the 76ers. The Pacers in 2000. Basically every East team since Jordan retired besides the Pistons. Magic's later teams that lost to the Pistons and the Bulls weren't very good either. Hakeem won two titles with teams worse than the Heat. LeBron has had some good teams.

 

[RaceBannon]

I can go with the Knicks and Pacers as worse than the Heat but they didn't win. No loser was worse than the Cavs. Hard to find a winner worse than the Heat winners. We aren't talking about Lebron losing every Finals, he has two rings.

As for where he ranks, Kareem is the best by far. Magic never won a ring without him. Give Lebron Kareem and he has at least 5 rings. Magic lost 4 finals too. Lebron would kill Larry and Larry would admit that. Jordan is better and second only to Kareem. Lebron is top 5.

The Heat dream team wasn't nearly as talented as the Lakers ad Celtics in the 80's or the Lakers in the 2000's. The Heat had no center. Their defense was Lebron. To say he isn't smart or only relies on DNA is TQFS.

Lebron's peers and guys like Barkley know how great he is. Haters gonna hate

 

[Tequilla]

I can go with the Knicks and Pacers as worse than the Heat but they didn't win. No loser was worse than the Cavs. Hard to find a winner worse than the Heat winners. We aren't talking about Lebron losing every Finals, he has two rings.

As for where he ranks, Kareem is the best by far. Magic never won a ring without him. Give Lebron Kareem and he has at least 5 rings. Magic lost 4 finals too. Lebron would kill Larry and Larry would admit that. Jordan is better and second only to Kareem. Lebron is top 5.

The Heat dream team wasn't nearly as talented as the Lakers ad Celtics in the 80's or the Lakers in the 2000's. The Heat had no center. Their defense was Lebron. To say he isn't smart or only relies on DNA is TQFS.

Lebron's peers and guys like Barkley know how great he is. Haters gonna hate

Haha ... Magic never won a ring without Kareem.

You do realize that by the time the Lakers won the titles in '87 and '88 The Big Nitty was a role player on that team with Magic as the lead with Big Game James and Byron Scott carrying more of the load? Or the fact that the title the Lakers won in '80 was because of the performance that Magic turned in once Kareem got hurt?

As for losing however many title series that the Lakers lost, let's also remember that the West during that time period was about as weak as the East has been during LBJ's tenure. Not only did Magic win at a higher rate, but when he lost in the Finals, it was to all-time great teams in the '83 Sixers, the '84 Celtics, the '89 Pistons, and the '91 Bulls. No shame in losing to ANY of those teams. Particularly when you consider that the Lakers beat the Sixers in 2 out of 3 Finals series in that era, the Celtics 2 of 3, and split with the Pistons.

Bird would say that because he's Indiana humble like that. Magic said it best when he said that there will never be another Larry Bird. Bird had a gear that he could get to that LBJ can only get to in rare moments. Bird did that time after time after time.

Kareem isn't Russell ... he's not the best big to ever play the game. And in all honesty, Kareem's record without Magic isn't that good either. He won exactly 1 title and made it to 2 Finals before he had Magic. So it goes both ways.

My personal list would have Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem, and Bird. Those are the 5 best players to ever play the game. You have to be a damn good player to get into that pantheon ... and LBJ isn't that player IMO.

 

[RaceBannon]

Bird lol. If he was black he'd be just another guy

I like to say the guy that beat the Pistons in Game 7 for the back to back in 1988 wasn't a factor. Kareem was the man on the Lakers. He was the Captain, not Magic.

I'm not saying the Lakers sucked, with 4 hall of famers they better not. Lebron had one aging crippled hall of famer on his two title teams and he's not done. It's no shame to lose to the Spurs either. The Dallas series is Lebron's anchor but that is a better team than most give them credit for.

He's easily top 5

 

[Tequilla]

Bird lol. If he was black he'd be just another guy

I like to say the guy that beat the Pistons in Game 7 for the back to back in 1988 wasn't a factor. Kareem was the man on the Lakers. He was the Captain, not Magic.

I'm not saying the Lakers sucked, with 4 hall of famers they better not. Lebron had one aging crippled hall of famer on his two title teams and he's not done. It's no shame to lose to the Spurs either. The Dallas series is Lebron's anchor but that is a better team than most give them credit for.

He's easily top 5

Race is out of his element here.

Kareem scored a grand total of 4 points in Game 7 of the '88 Finals.

The Lakers won because Big Game James earned his nickname by posting his only career Triple Double and Magic was Magic with a 19-5-14 performance on only 9 shots from the field.

 

[RaceBannon]

Sorry it was game 6 to force game 7

 

[Tequilla]

Sorry it was game 6 to force game 7

Might be time for you to sit this one out ...

Kareem scored 14 points in Game 6 by going 3 of 14 from the field. You probably are recalling the fact that he made free throws down the stretch after some questionable calls on Laimbeer.

By this point of his career, you could argue that Kareem was as much a hindrance to the Lakers as an asset because they played through the Captain far more than they should have.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198806190LAL.html

 

[RaceBannon]

Some free throws = the game winners

I watched it

 

[RoadDawg55]

The answer about LeBron is in the middle, but more towards Tequilla. Tequilla is kind of a hater and Race is a LeBron stan.

Anything about the Heat not being good is stupid. A hobbled Wade still averaged 20 shooting over 50%. Chris Bosh is an All Star. Four trips to the Finals and two championships is good stuff though. The first trip not resulting in a title falls squarely on LeBron.

I agree that the Cavs sucked when they made the Finals with LeBron, but who gives a shit? The rest of the East sucked and they were swept in the Finals.

LeBron is a great player, but he's also a product of AAU ball. He's friends with everyone and he's not as cutthroat as many NBA greats. I also don't think he makes his teammates so much better like many believe.

 

[Tequilla]

Some free throws = the game winners

I watched it

So did I - I remember exactly where I was watching it as well. When you're 9 and you see what Isaiah did in that game, it's the kind of thing you don't forget.

 

[RaceBannon]

9?

Ok

 

[RaceBannon]

The answer about LeBron is in the middle, but more towards Tequilla. Tequilla is kind of a hater and Race is a LeBron stan.

Anything about the Heat not being good is stupid. A hobbled Wade still averaged 20 shooting over 50%. Chris Bosh is an All Star. Four trips to the Finals and two championships is good stuff though. The first trip not resulting in a title falls squarely on LeBron.

I agree that the Cavs sucked when they made the Finals with LeBron, but who gives a shit? The rest of the East sucked and they were swept in the Finals.

LeBron is a great player, but he's also a product of AAU ball. He's friends with everyone and he's not as cutthroat as many NBA greats. I also don't think he makes his teammates so much better like many believe.

Good not great.

I'm right

 

[Tequilla]

The answer about LeBron is in the middle, but more towards Tequilla. Tequilla is kind of a hater and Race is a LeBron stan.

In fairness, I think LBJ is a great player. Where my hating starts is when people want to crown him and think that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. He repeatedly proves to me that he isn't the kind of player that you see littered in the Top 5-10 to ever play the game. He's more in the Top 8-15 range which is reserved for the greats of the game ... not the top 5 to 8 which is reserved more for those that are in the legendary all-time great listing.

The other thing that bothers me with LBJ is that so many of his advantages are driven as much because of genetics as anything else. He's got good skills but I never have felt like he's completely maximized the skillset that he could have. You make a really good point about the AAU world ... LBJ is definitely not the cold blooded killer that so many of the greats in the history of the game were. Jordan would kill anybody to win. Russell was the ultimate winner. Magic killed you with a smile as he ran you up and down the court ... but his drive to win was unquestioned. Bird raised his game time after time in difficult spots. Kareem is a little bit of an outlier to me on this list as his record was a little spotty but his dominance is unquestioned. Even getting outside of that list you start getting to guys like Kobe and Duncan who lived for winning (albeit in different manners). Kobe's cold bloodness is modeled after Jordan. Duncan may be one of the best teammates in the history of the game. And like Kareem, Wilt was such a unique player that his dominance was unquestioned. To me, LBJ isn't in the category of any of those guys.

Speaking of which, was very interesting to watch Kobe's performance last night. His ability to manipulate the court and make his teammates better was amusing to watch.

 

[Tequilla]

Race,

The game has changed. Those Heat teams were very good. I wouldn't call them great. But they were definitely the best team in their conference during that period with minimal challengers in Boston and Indiana.

That being said, if you assume that Bosh turns into a HOF player, which I think that there's a good chance that he will, you are looking at a team that had 2 HOF players in their prime and even if you say that Wade wasn't, he wasn't that far off of his prime and like James is a sure fire HOF player. And for 2 of those runs to the Finals, the Heat also had a 4th HOF player in Ray Allen.

The reason those Heat teams aren't viewed more favorably when you consider the all-time great teams was because you never got the feeling watching them that they were maximizing their abilities.

When you look at teams that have had 3 HOF players in their prime, normally they are a juggernaut that blows through the opposition. You never got the feeling with the Heat that they were that team. In hindsight, they were extremely lucky to win their 2nd title against the Spurs. The only title where you really felt like they were operating at a high level was when they beat an OKC team that was more or less a less experienced version of themselves. The reality is that the shot Ray Allen hit to get them into OT and ultimately win that Game 6 is a shot that he makes maybe 25% of the time in that situation. Almost EVERYTHING had to go right for them to win that game. It's not that far fetched to see LBJ as being 1-4 in trips to the Finals ... which isn't a record that any all-time great in the history of the game can throw out there as a sign of their greatness.