But how are unions bad?

[Swaye]

We've been hit by the slowdown too. Fortunately we don't deal with food or crops but I feel for the farmers in WA who are trying to get product to Asia but it's rotting at the Port. If the product doesn't get to the customers, they don't get paid and that's a negative for WA state economic activity and the economic multiplier (farmer not getting paid means he may delay replacing his truck for a year and cuts back going out to eat which means the car-dealer and small restaurant owner don't get as much revenue which means...you get the point).

The unions that are the worst are the ones that inexcusably can grab you by the balls: think public sector unions and longshoremen. At least Boeing is subject to external competition from Airbus, Embraer, Bombadier, and the Chinese may jump in too.

So the problem with longshoremen is that you can't get around those turds. Maybe you can airship product in or out but depending on your product, that can cost 3x, 5x, or even 10x.

If I was the Port Commissioner, I'd look into pulling a Reagan-like checkmate and fire all of them but the Commish may be bought by the union (just like the Seattle City Government).

But if you want to be an especially stinky turd and really unAmerican, you become a Metro Bus driver. Someone did a public records request and found that about 30 bus drivers made over $100,000 in gross salary alone (base salary + OT) for sitting on their duffs and driving a bus around. The general rule of thumb is that public sector bennies (pension, early retirement, and gold plated healthcare) are equal to gross pay so these people are making as much as $260,000 in total compensation. If the city allowed competition and pulled the massive subsidies Metro receives, Metro would collapse.

So yeah, captive audience unions suck and are essentially a tax on all Americans who are not in those unions (except for the politicians who get in bed with them and take their $$$$).

Ok, so let's privatize everything and take away unions. The cost will be the exact same, just instead of going to blue collar workers, the money will go to the millionaire owner of the business. Another great way to transfer wealth from the middle class too the wealthy.

And no, benefits are no where near 100% of income. Very doubtful they are over 30%. When people say benefits are that high, they are overinflating the amount of pension contributions. By a lot.

Jesus, Comrade.

 

[2001400ex]

We've been hit by the slowdown too. Fortunately we don't deal with food or crops but I feel for the farmers in WA who are trying to get product to Asia but it's rotting at the Port. If the product doesn't get to the customers, they don't get paid and that's a negative for WA state economic activity and the economic multiplier (farmer not getting paid means he may delay replacing his truck for a year and cuts back going out to eat which means the car-dealer and small restaurant owner don't get as much revenue which means...you get the point).

The unions that are the worst are the ones that inexcusably can grab you by the balls: think public sector unions and longshoremen. At least Boeing is subject to external competition from Airbus, Embraer, Bombadier, and the Chinese may jump in too.

So the problem with longshoremen is that you can't get around those turds. Maybe you can airship product in or out but depending on your product, that can cost 3x, 5x, or even 10x.

If I was the Port Commissioner, I'd look into pulling a Reagan-like checkmate and fire all of them but the Commish may be bought by the union (just like the Seattle City Government).

But if you want to be an especially stinky turd and really unAmerican, you become a Metro Bus driver. Someone did a public records request and found that about 30 bus drivers made over $100,000 in gross salary alone (base salary + OT) for sitting on their duffs and driving a bus around. The general rule of thumb is that public sector bennies (pension, early retirement, and gold plated healthcare) are equal to gross pay so these people are making as much as $260,000 in total compensation. If the city allowed competition and pulled the massive subsidies Metro receives, Metro would collapse.

So yeah, captive audience unions suck and are essentially a tax on all Americans who are not in those unions (except for the politicians who get in bed with them and take their $$$$).

Ok, so let's privatize everything and take away unions. The cost will be the exact same, just instead of going to blue collar workers, the money will go to the millionaire owner of the business. Another great way to transfer wealth from the middle class too the wealthy.

And no, benefits are no where near 100% of income. Very doubtful they are over 30%. When people say benefits are that high, they are overinflating the amount of pension contributions. By a lot.

Jesus, Comrade.

It's Saturday, wtf??? Don't you have some sluts you need to be posting yesterday?

 

[sarktastic]

so... the Pacific Maritime Association is not a reliable source? Can you then please, refute what they claim and link the sources you believe are more credible than PMA and why?

Thank you SO MUCH! In advance

 

[HuskiesADW]

@topdawgnc‌ still waiting for you to explain how this is killing your business. All you've done is whine about excessive pay like a jealous bitch.

I can't speak for @topdawgnc but I can speak for my Dad who owns a trucking business.

It is hurting his business because the volume of containers that go through his business has declined because of the ports in both Seattle and Tacoma (especially Seattle). Drivers spend more time on "stand still" or waiting for a load at the ports then the year prior or any year before that.

Increased costs = layoff some drivers and warehouse workers to cut costs and look for other contracts to compensate those loses (such as transporting cars from here to CA, NV, etc.

If you can't understand how constant strikes at the ports are hurting local businesses and other businesses throughout the United States that rely on transport to receive their goods in time I don't know what to tell you.

The idea of Unions was great but now I don't really see the benefit that they bring. I find that Unions really benefit the individuals that run the said Unions through Union fees. If you don't believe me look or ask how much your union boss made last year.

You can even see the effect that Unions have had upon the American workforce with how many jobs have been outsourced to other countries.

Just give it another decade or two and I doubt that Boeing will even stay in this area.

 

[Doogles]

I'm so hungover. This thread nearly killed me.

 

[Fire_Marshall_Bill]

The Longshoremen's Union is notorious for this shit. I generally support the idea of unions but they're one of the greedy ones. A public radio station (not exactly Fox News) grilled one of them when they were bitching over something about 12 years ago. Yeah, it's dangerous work. So is being a cop, fireman, construction worker, welder, roofer, lineman and insert most blue collar jobs here. Most of those jobs don't pay nearly as well.

OTOH, reactionary statements like "Unions have outlasted their use." Really? Unions helped create the middle class. With the decimation of unions since the 70s, most people have to work longer or a second job to maintain the same lifestyle and standard of living. That includes many professionals. Check the facts.

 

[2001400ex]

@topdawgnc‌ still waiting for you to explain how this is killing your business. All you've done is whine about excessive pay like a jealous bitch.

I can't speak for @topdawgnc but I can speak for my Dad who owns a trucking business.

It is hurting his business because the volume of containers that go through his business has declined because of the ports in both Seattle and Tacoma (especially Seattle). Drivers spend more time on "stand still" or waiting for a load at the ports then the year prior or any year before that.

Increased costs = layoff some drivers and warehouse workers to cut costs and look for other contracts to compensate those loses (such as transporting cars from here to CA, NV, etc.

If you can't understand how constant strikes at the ports are hurting local businesses and other businesses throughout the United States that rely on transport to receive their goods in time I don't know what to tell you.

The idea of Unions was great but now I don't really see the benefit that they bring. I find that Unions really benefit the individuals that run the said Unions through Union fees. If you don't believe me look or ask how much your union boss made last year.

You can even see the effect that Unions have had upon the American workforce with how many jobs have been outsourced to other countries.

Just give it another decade or two and I doubt that Boeing will even stay in this area.

There are good and bad to unions. First, less than 10% of workers in this country are under a union. Second, they are here to protect the workers. Mechanics at Boeing are under union, the engineers are not. Microsoft and amazon employees are not, even tho they are in "big bad union state" of Washington.

Here is the misnomer about unions in private industry. "If we get rid on of unions, products will cost us less". Business price goods at what they can sell them for regardless of cost. Look at the iPhone, it costs apple under $200 to make, yet they sell for over $500. If apple could save $30 a unit, do you think they'd drop the price when they are flying off the shelf at their current price? Nope.

Another example. Cars. Why does a 2015 car cost say $30,000 in October of 2014 go for $27,000 in August of 2015? For the exact same car that cost the exact same to make. Then they don't make one change for 2016 and it costs $30,400 in October of 2015.

Unions in governmental entities are another matter. Schools? I don't know, I can make an argument against that. The port? Well it's an enterprise, so essentially they charge what they can to cover expenses. If they got rid of the union, they would probably be able to charge less (as they do not have a profit motive). If we were to privatize them and get rid of the union, the costs wouldn't go down, they would just charge the same amount and the owners of the business would keep the profit.

I just find it funny when people are anti union no matter what, and don't sit back and think about the true effects. Or how they can be beneficial.

 

[MikeDamone]

The Longshoremen's Union is notorious for this shit. I generally support the idea of unions but they're one of the greedy ones. A public radio station (not exactly Fox News) grilled one of them when they were bitching over something about 12 years ago. Yeah, it's dangerous work. So is being a cop, fireman, construction worker, welder, roofer, lineman and insert most blue collar jobs here. Most of those jobs don't pay nearly as well.

OTOH, reactionary statements like "Unions have outlasted their use." Really? Unions helped create the middle class. With the decimation of unions since the 70s, most people have to work longer or a second job to maintain the same lifestyle and standard of living. That includes many professionals. Check the facts.

Sounds like you need to check some facts

 

[OZONE]

The idea of SkyMall was great but now I don't really see the benefit that they bring. I find that SkyMall really benefits the individual that runs SkyMall. If you don't believe me look or ask how much the SkyMall CEO made last year.

Fixed it for you.

Some of the government approved oligopolies and monopolies that control our economy fuck shit up more than the longshoreman do, and the executives running them earn a fuck of a lot more than a longshoreman.

It's funny the hypocrisy that some conservatives barf out when they go on their rants.

Read a fucking history book.

And comprehend it.

I guess you anti union folks want to return to the days when 14 year old kids worked 60 our weeks in coal mines... the "good old days" of true american capitalism.

 

[doogsinparadise]

It's illogical to say "unions have outlived their usefulness." The relative conditions within the economy are no different than during this long-gone mythical period where everyone agrees (in hindsight) that unions were beneficial. You either believe in the efficacy of unions or you don't, but it's dishonest to claim two different standards.

 

[topdawgnc]

It's illogical to say "unions have outlived their usefulness." The relative conditions within the economy are no different than during this long-gone mythical period where everyone agrees (in hindsight) that unions were beneficial. You either believe in the efficacy of unions or you don't, but it's dishonest to claim two different standards.

Union membership continues to decline. The reason is because when given a choice, people don't want to belong. The relative conditions have changed, significantly. Companies provide benefits to attract employees. It is now expected. We thank unions for their contribution. Now it is time for them to go.

Anyone who believes a 14 year old would be pushed into sweat shops as a standard is smoking crack.

The reality is the same one the logging industry faced. It wasn't the spotted owl that cost those guys their job ... it was technological advancements.

 

[topdawgnc]

The idea of SkyMall was great but now I don't really see the benefit that they bring. I find that SkyMall really benefits the individual that runs SkyMall. If you don't believe me look or ask how much the SkyMall CEO made last year.

Fixed it for you.

Some of the government approved oligopolies and monopolies that control our economy fuck shit up more than the longshoreman do, and the executives running them earn a fuck of a lot more than a longshoreman.

It's funny the hypocrisy that some conservatives barf out when they go on their rants.

Read a fucking history book.

And comprehend it.

I guess you anti union folks want to return to the days when 14 year old kids worked 60 our weeks in coal mines... the "good old days" of true american capitalism.

I am laughing you would insert SkyMall as your example.

Like the Union, SkyMall is an antiquated business model who has met its demise.

 

[doogsinparadise]

It's illogical to say "unions have outlived their usefulness." The relative conditions within the economy are no different than during this long-gone mythical period where everyone agrees (in hindsight) that unions were beneficial. You either believe in the efficacy of unions or you don't, but it's dishonest to claim two different standards.

Union membership continues to decline. The reason is because when given a choice, people don't want to belong. The relative conditions have changed, significantly. Companies provide benefits to attract employees. It is now expected. We thank unions for their contribution. Now it is time for them to go.

Anyone who believes a 14 year old would be pushed into sweat shops as a standard is smoking crack.

The reality is the same one the logging industry faced. It wasn't the spotted owl that cost those guys their job ... it was technological advancements.

I agree with your last point. On the first point however, declining unionization can only lead to backsliding while you wait for the workforce to go back and learn new skills.

 

[OZONE]

The idea of SkyMall was great but now I don't really see the benefit that they bring. I find that SkyMall really benefits the individual that runs SkyMall. If you don't believe me look or ask how much the SkyMall CEO made last year.

Fixed it for you.

Some of the government approved oligopolies and monopolies that control our economy fuck shit up more than the longshoreman do, and the executives running them earn a fuck of a lot more than a longshoreman.

It's funny the hypocrisy that some conservatives barf out when they go on their rants.

Read a fucking history book.

And comprehend it.

I guess you anti union folks want to return to the days when 14 year old kids worked 60 our weeks in coal mines... the "good old days" of true american capitalism.

I am laughing you would insert SkyMall as your example.

Like the Union, SkyMall is an antiquated business model who has met its demise.

That's the point. Unions are no worse than your typical american corporation with overpayed executives.

Why do you hate america?

 

[topdawgnc]

The idea of SkyMall was great but now I don't really see the benefit that they bring. I find that SkyMall really benefits the individual that runs SkyMall. If you don't believe me look or ask how much the SkyMall CEO made last year.

Fixed it for you.

Some of the government approved oligopolies and monopolies that control our economy fuck shit up more than the longshoreman do, and the executives running them earn a fuck of a lot more than a longshoreman.

It's funny the hypocrisy that some conservatives barf out when they go on their rants.

Read a fucking history book.

And comprehend it.

I guess you anti union folks want to return to the days when 14 year old kids worked 60 our weeks in coal mines... the "good old days" of true american capitalism.

I am laughing you would insert SkyMall as your example.

Like the Union, SkyMall is an antiquated business model who has met its demise.

That's the point. Unions are no worse than your typical american corporation with overpayed executives.

Why do you hate america?

I love America.

It's the beauty of the free market.

SkyMall bad ... it goes away.

Why are there laws that force people to pay dues, but no laws that force people to buy from SkyMall?

 

[sarktastic]

It's illogical to say "unions have outlived their usefulness." The relative conditions within the economy are no different than during this long-gone mythical period where everyone agrees (in hindsight) that unions were beneficial. You either believe in the efficacy of unions or you don't, but it's dishonest to claim two different standards.

Union membership continues to decline. The reason is because when given a choice, people don't want to belong. The relative conditions have changed, significantly. Companies provide benefits to attract employees. It is now expected. We thank unions for their contribution. Now it is time for them to go.

Anyone who believes a 14 year old would be pushed into sweat shops as a standard is smoking crack.

The reality is the same one the logging industry faced. It wasn't the spotted owl that cost those guys their job ... it was technological advancements.

I agree with your last point. On the first point however, declining unionization can only lead to backsliding while you wait for the workforce to go back and learn new skills.

We aren't sending the workforce back to learn new skilzz. We are simply importing the workforce we need from around the globe and moving them here.

Seriously... imagine you're Microsoft, Google, Amazon, etc... would you rather hire some dumbshit who took coding for two weeks in a retraining session with an IQ of 80 or hire somebody that's been coding every day of their life, has an IQ of 120 or better who is grateful to have a job in the United States and willing to work 60-70-80 hour weeks without whining?

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

Mike Damone doesn't agree with any of this shit. He thinks it would be okay for workers to get paid 30 cents an hour if that's what the market dictates.

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

Simple fact. If there were a class of citizens in the US that were considered undesirable and were relegated to slave status, like the Jews in Europe last century, most of our wonderful corporations wouldn't hesitate to exploit them in order to make a profit if it were legal to do so. Henry Ford is a case in point. He used slave labor in Nazi Germany (he should be posthumously stripped of his US citizenship, have his corpse dug up and be reburied in an unmarked grave). Corporations = institutionalized greed. They will gravitate toward the lowest common denominator that the laws allow. Unions at least keep some of them in check.

 

[PurpleThrobber]

Simple fact. If there were a class of citizens in the US that were considered undesirable and were relegated to slave status, like the Jews in Europe last century, most of our wonderful corporations wouldn't hesitate to exploit them in order to make a profit if it were legal to do so. Henry Ford is a case in point. He used slave labor in Nazi Germany (he should be posthumously stripped of his US citizenship, have his corpse dug up and be reburied in an unmarked grave). Corporations = institutionalized greed. They will gravitate toward the lowest common denominator that the laws allow. Unions at least keep some of them in check.

Cool 1930 story, brah.

 

[oregonblitzkrieg]

Simple fact. If there were a class of citizens in the US that were considered undesirable and were relegated to slave status, like the Jews in Europe last century, most of our wonderful corporations wouldn't hesitate to exploit them in order to make a profit if it were legal to do so. Henry Ford is a case in point. He used slave labor in Nazi Germany (he should be posthumously stripped of his US citizenship, have his corpse dug up and be reburied in an unmarked grave). Corporations = institutionalized greed. They will gravitate toward the lowest common denominator that the laws allow. Unions at least keep some of them in check.

Cool 1930 story, brah.

Yeah it's cool, and still relevant today as long as humans are humans.